Transcript - Two Chrisses ABC 891 - 27 April 2009

(Lengthy discussion with Chris Schacht about the details of how the Labor Party's Colac Hotel funds are spent)

Journalist

This is meant to be the two "C"s!

Hon Christopher Pyne MP

I'm happy to sit back and see C1 pole-axing the Labor Party yet again but there is a subtext of course to this whole issue which you haven't raised...

Journalist

... and you'll help us now?

Pyne

Well I think I will try...

Journalist

Well let me ask you this question then. What is the subtext here in your view Chris Pyne, having listened to Chris Schacht?

Pyne

Well we all know that Rod Sawford and his group in the Labor Party in the Port have been unhappy about a number of issues in Port Adelaide, starting with the bridge - I think it was called the Mary Mackillop Bridge some time ago - but really reaching its zenith...

Schacht

The Diver Derek Bridge now

Pyne

It's now called the...

Schacht

Diver Derek. And that's an issue that Rod and others raised. They wanted the bridge called after Diver Derek VC, who was a Port Adelaide personality. And in the end the Government agreed with them and backed off the other name.

Pyne

Right it was to be called the Mary Mackillop Bridge but there were a lot of issues about that with Kevin Foley and other members of the Party down there. But the real zenith of this unhappiness was Cheltenham Racecourse. Everyone knows in political circles that Rod Sawford and everyone knows in political circles that Rod Sawford and other Labor people down in Port Adelaide are talking about the next state election - maybe not Rod Sawford in particular, but certainly there are Labor figures talking about running as independents in state seats. Against Michael Wright, against Kevin Foley, Jay Weatherill and Michael Atkinson.

Journalist

With the blessing of Nick Xenophon if you want to take bets...

Pyne

Right. And the front page of the Advertiser last week was a clear shot across the bows to those people to say "if you take us on in those four seats, we will ruin your life", metaphorically "breaking your knees" I guess although we hope that doesn't happen any more. But it was basically saying "you take us on, and we'll make sure you pay for it". And that's the subtext of the entire story. And that's why it's in the Advertiser rather than being dealt with behind the scenes within the Labor Party...

Journalist

Or should the ALP be looking after assets which...

Pyne

But if the ALP really wanted to deal with the Colac Hotel etcetera etcetera they would be doing this behind closed doors...

Journalist

It could have been leaked by ...

Pyne

... but they're deliberately doing it this way because they're saying to Rod Sawford and his friends: "Back off or there'll be trouble."

Journalist

There'd be a number of people who'd want to pay out Rod Sawford beyond the Labor Party...

Pyne

But David's already said that the right have already rung up saying "pursue this story", out to get Rod Sawford and the others, and of course Koutsantonis - I'm quite certain that the leaks against Tom Koutsantonis didn't come from the South Australian Police Force. They came from people within the Labor Party.

Journalist

But Chris Pyne, doesn't it just reinforce to the rusted-ons at Port Adelaide that it was Labor Party policy not to sell Cheltenham, to preserve it. Here's a guy highlighting the fact that for whatever reason, he's needed money to defend what was Labor Party policy when he was your local Member.

Pyne

It's a serpent's nest, and the mistake that the Labor Party are making, because perhaps they've been in power for too long, is thinking that attacking a good, solid local Member who was very popular in his district, like Rod Sawford, is good politics. It is bad politics, and it will backfire. And quite frankly the take-out of the voters in Port Adelaide is not going to be "oh you know Rod Sawford's done something wrong or not done something wrong", and I've sat next to Rod on planes for about fifteen years and I can assure you he's a man of great integrity... The take-out will be "why is the Labor Party head office picking on our local Port boy". That's what the take-out is going to be amongst the voters so they've done themselves a tremendous amount of damage. And they've done it to themselves.

Schacht

I think the most interesting thing to have here on air is that David has mentioned that two or three weeks ago before this became public, that you openly say, and I accept your absolute word on this David, that a senior member of the right wing faction, as you describe them: obviously a member of the Labor Party, and possibly a Member of the Parliament, rang you (Pyne - possibly) possibly, rang you and gave you a briefing about...

Journalist

No, no, what this person said was: "why don't you check out Rod Sawford and the Colac Hotel". Now what I'm saying to you is that we were already aware, but our source had told us things in confidence and on the proviso that don't do anything more until certain things had happened.

Schacht

Well all I can say is that said person should have been going to possibly the State Secretary or the State President and said, if they have a concern about what was going on they should have been dealt with first of all in the Labor Party rather than saying: get the press to investigate because this might be embarrassing for someone they don't like.

Pyne

But they wanted it to be embarrassing... and you know as well as I do that there's a year until the election, and somebody's clearing the decks in the Labor Party in preparation for that election and there's payback coming from the other side.

Schacht

I have to say, if it happened in the Liberal Party, this is not clearing the decks. This is something you don't quite know where it's going to end up and it could be like when Malcolm Fraser had a Royal Commission into the painters and dockers and ended up he blew apart half of the financial structure of Australia because of people in the Bottom of the Harbour tax schemes...

Pyne

That's taking us back a bit...

Schacht

I know but it's an example of where you think you're half-smart at the time, and you don't quite know how it's going to end up.

(Station break)

Journalist

Now Chris Pyne, as a serving MP for Sturt, you're about to - (sings) you're in the money - you're going to get an electoral allowance and Tony Wright's telling us that if you wish you can just pocket this: that there's no accountability...

Schacht

That's not right

Pyne

Look there's a lot of foolishness talked about MPs' salaries and electoral allowances. My understanding is that the electoral allowance which is used for expenditure in the electorate from certificates for the local school right through to morning teas for medal ceremonies, has not been increased in seven years. In seven years. And I think you'll find that inflation has gone up quite substantially.

Journalist

When was the last time the Newstart allowance was increased?

Pyne

I think that is increased every year because it is linked to either the inflation, the CPI index, or the MTAWE, which is the Male Total Average Weekly Earnings...

(Indecipherable banter from hosts about pronunciation of MTAWE)

The electoral allowance has not been increased for, I understand, seven years. The remuneration tribunal, which is a body completely independent of MPs, makes these decisions and quite frankly it doesn't matter - if the electoral allowance had been decreased by 15%...

(Inaudible)

(Chris Schacht talks about the history of the electoral allowances, and changes that Paul Keating brought in during the 1980s.)

Pyne

I think you'll find that the vast majority of MPs spend their entire electoral allowance, plus plenty. But this is one of those issues that you simply cannot win on in the general public. And it's one of the reasons why... I've been an MP for 16 years. I've never complained about salaries or emoluments - there's an absolutely no-win situation for an MP. But the electoral allowance has not been increased for seven years, so shock horror, it's been increased by $4700 odd dollars over 12 months, which you spend on your electorate, and of course it wouldn't matter what we did, people would still criticise.

Journalist

We've got a text here saying electoral allowances are more than the median annual incomes of South Australians.

Pyne

Well I have 100,000 electors, I have 134,000 people in my electorate. My understanding is that the electoral allowance is less than 50 cents per person. Much less in fact.

(Inaudible)

Journalist

What is the total cost of a backbencher?

Pyne

The Government pays for rent. And the Government pays for the staff. The staff's salaries are not the salaries of MPs...

Journalist

I'm just wondering what the total cost is...

Schacht

Oh it would be several hundred thousands of dollars per MP. As it should be. Democracy costs money. If you want to go back to the nineteenth century when Members weren't paid, only the very rich aristocrats could sit in Parliament in Great Britain and in Australia. Working people could never stand for Parliament in Australia until Members of Parliament got paid. Because you couldn't go from being a shearer, because you had no money then to being an unpaid Member of Parliament.

Journalist

We've got millionaires as both the Prime Minister and the Leader of the Opposition.

Pyne

They are the exception rather than the rule in politics, I can assure you.

(Schacht and journalists discuss whether millionaires should be allowed to run for Parliament. Consensus is yes, eventually.)

(Journalist talks about the local Member for Adelaide putting out newsletters with lots of photos of herself. Question is raised about what value this provides to the public.)

Pyne

My newsletter is called Sturt Update, and I've been publishing it for fifteen and a half years, and I can tell you that it provides a lot of information to my electorate. And quite frankly if I didn't publish a newsletter to my electorate you'd be sitting here saying "you've been a Member of Parliament for fifteen years, why don't you tell your electorate what you've been doing through a newsletter".

(Journalist goes on to express concern that none of the people in the newsletter in question are named, except for the MP.)

(Caller suggests that we should downsize Parliament, or sack the lot of them, and he could be El Presidente. Chris Schacht quotes Winston Churchill in defence of democracy. Discussion continues about another text message suggesting that unspent electoral allowances should be returned rather than being treated as salary.)

Pyne

If they were the rules, I wouldn't have any trouble following them either. As far as I'm concerned, you don't go into politics for the money. If you did, you're there for the wrong reasons. You go into politics to serve your electorate. It's a privilege. And whatever the emoluments are I would still be doing the same thing.

Journalist

I've got a feeling you've said that before.

Pyne

I've been saying it since I was elected because I still believe it, even after six election victories. If you go into politics for the money, you're making a mistake. You should go into politics because you want to serve the people and make the place a better place, and that is why most people are there.