Transcript - Two Chrisses - ABC 891 - 21 June 2010

SUBJECTS: Desalination plant; Mental health; Great big new tax on mining

David Bevan: Let's welcome Christopher Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt, talking to us from our Canberra studios. Good morning Christopher Pyne.

Christopher Pyne: Good morning David.

Bevan: And this is a big week because it is possibly the last week the federal parliament will sit before the federal election, is that right?

Pyne: I think it is most likely going to be the last week of this Parliament. I think the Prime Minister will head to the polls in the winter break, designed to avoid a couple of interest rate rises which are very likely in the next six months and I think he doesn't want to be blamed by mortgage holders for those interest rate rises. I think he'll try and avoid that.

Bevan: And you don't mind if we cut 'The 2 Cs' a little bit short this morning?

Pyne: Well obviously that is a deliberate strategy from Penny Wong because the ALP hates 'The Two Chrises.' I think... I'm not sure whether they hate C1 more than they hate me or not. So I'm sure that's all part of their strategy - you'll probably see quite a bit of that between now and the next election to try and cut 'The Two Chrises' short.

Bevan: Well, I did call Penny Wong's office early yesterday afternoon and put in a request to speak to her following the story that was on the front page of the Sunday Mail regarding the desalination plant...

Pyne: (inaudible)... good story.

Bevan: Well it is a good story. About a half past nine was the final answer, there was a bit of toing and froing all afternoon. The final answer was that Penny Wong was not available at all today for 891 listeners. And I said, well look frankly I don't think that's good enough. I appreciate she is a very busy lady but it is a program that lasts nearly four hours and I'm happy to do pre-records and come in early to do that. So anyway after some negotiations the time was settled on twenty past ten. Chris Schacht joins us now. He is on a phone line from Shanghai, former Labor senator, former state ALP Secretary. Good morning Chris Schacht.

Chris Schacht: Good morning. Yes, I'm in Shanghai with a trade delegation of a number... of about a dozen small to middle size wine makers out of South Australia. We're up here trying to overcome our oversupply of wine grapes and wine in Australia by selling more wine in to China and we will be here for a week with this delegation. But I just have to say your producer just told me before we came on air something that's got me quite shocked. Not that Penny Wong is taking ten minutes off us. It's just that she told me that a plane has been reported missing in Africa with a number of mining personnel on it from Australia. And people fear very much for what's happened. And one of them is Ken Talbot who is a major shareholder, his company, in Marathon Resources of which I'm a company director and I know Ken Talbot and I must say I'm a bit dizzy in just receiving that news five minutes ago. It's unconfirmed but I certainly hope everyone survived. But it's a bit of a shock to hear that, that someone you well may well have perished in Africa in a plane accident.

Bevan: Well we are, we are sorry to be the bearers of sad tidings for you...

Schacht: I may be a bit off my game today because I'm still sitting here thinking about it.

Bevan: You know Ken Talbot quite well?

Schacht: Yes I've met him quite a few times. He is a major shareholder in the company of which I'm company director, Marathon Resources. He is also a major investor in developing mines in Queensland and also mines around the world. So at a personal level, just at a personal level of knowing him, it is a terrible shock.

Bevan: Well we're sorry to be the bearer of that news for you, Chris Schacht. We'll let you catch your breath for a moment. Let's begin with Chris Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt. We spoke to Barnaby Joyce this morning about another story that was on the weekend. I don't know whether you thought it was as good as the Penny Wong story but he was quoted in the paper as saying, 'look maybe we should be thinking of taking the people to the water rather than the water to the people'. Now he came on our program this morning and said, 'oh look if it really upsets people, don't worry about it'. Is that good enough?

Pyne: Well the story that was in the weekend 'tiser were quotes that were two years old from Barnaby Joyce. So I think that was a little unfair on Barnaby Joyce...

Bevan: He didn't shy away from saying it. He said 'I've said that, that's what I've'...

Pyne: Yeah well two years ago he said it. He said it two years ago and obviously Barnaby likes a colourful turn of phrase and he likes word pictures but he doesn't seriously believe that that is an option and certainly the Coalition doesn't. The Coalition policy on this is very clear...

Bevan: Well I think he does. I think he does think it's a serious option but if it really upsets you I won't talk about it.

Pyne: No he doesn't really see it as a serious option, it's just Barnaby's particularly interesting colourful turn of phrase that he uses. But the Coalition policy on...

Bevan: It didn't mean anything?

Pyne: No it doesn't mean anything at all. It's just Barnaby being his usual colourful self.

Bevan: Well when do we know when Barnaby Joyce is saying something that means something?

Pyne: Well the Coalition's policy is extremely clear on the Murray-Darling Basin. Number one, we will try and get the states to spend more of the six billion dollars on infrastructure than they've spent. At the moment they've spent ten percent of that six billion dollars that the Howard government put in. We will ask them to refer their powers to the Commonwealth by half way through the second, the next term, or the first term of the Abbot Government. And if they don't refer their powers we will hold a referendum either on or before the next federal election to ask the public to give powers over the Murray Darling Basin to the National Government as it is a river system that runs through four states and one territory and should properly be managed from Canberra. That's our policy, that's the policy that everyone in the Coalition is signed up to and I strongly support that policy as a person who has fought for the Murray-Darling Basin for my last seventeen years in politics.

Bevan: Well you better hope that voters in the riverland and all the way down to Jamie Briggs' seat of Mayo surrounding the Lower Lakes believe you and not suspect that Barnaby Joyce when he said those things actually meant it. Because...

Pyne: As I've said Barnaby has a history of...

Bevan: ... if those voters think Barnaby Joyce did mean it and he's going to take that mindset into being the Federal Water Minister, you're in serious trouble in those seats aren't you?

Pyne: Look, no because Barnaby has a particular turn of phrase but a particular turn of phrase doesn't indicate or drive Coalition policy. I've just announced and enunciated the Coalition's policy on water. That is the policy announced by Tony Abbot and that will be the policy that we introduce if this rancid government is thrown out at the next federal election. I mean the more interesting story about water is Penny Wong exposing yet again that the promises and the phrases that the Rann Labor Government used before the last election about the de-sal plant being necessary to reduce our reliance on the Murray were yet again not true. And Labor basically said whatever was needed to win the last state election and Penny Wong has exposed the fact that the Labor federal and state governments don't work together, don't trust each other and that the promise that the de-sal plant would reduce our reliance on the Murray was a complete falsehood.

Bevan: Well we'll take that up with Penny Wong in about five or ten minutes. But Chris Schacht if we can come to you, talking to us on a phone line from Shanghai. The Penrith result, Labor knew it was going to get a whacking in the by-election in New South Wales but it certainly was, I think it was almost historic the turn against the Labor party. Do you think that has any federal ramifications?

Schacht: Just before I comment I just want to say; Barnaby Joyce is a senior member of the Coalition. The real question is will the National Party, if there was [is] a referendum on handing over the powers to the federal government, an Abbott led Government; would they actually campaign for that referendum or would they run dead and say 'No'. There are a plenty of stories coming out of Queensland in particular the National Party; they don't want the power handed over the federal government because they're worried about what that would do to water users who are National voters in Queensland.

Now, Penrith?

Bevan: Penrith.

Schacht: That result I can say I expected it. You cannot have a situation where a sitting member, a Labor member unfortunately, has to resign in what can only be called bold, flashy lights scandal over the misuse of entitlements etc, and not expect to have the electorate to give you a terrible thumping. That is what happened in what is obviously a special by-election where that was obviously the main issue was compounding a number of other problems that the Labor Government in New South Wales has. I think that if you're going to take that as a measure of what's going to happen in Western Sydney to Federal Labor, I think you're wrong. I think you're wrong to extrapolate that.

Bevan: But, we did see here in South Australia at the time of the State Bank; that was a state issue, but State Labor was so on the nose it did have a flow on effect, it did seep across into the federal results. That was at the time a number of Federal MPs the Labor party had here in South Australia was at an all time low. That must have been because there was some seepage and some damage to the brand Labor.

Schacht: Can I just tell you, in the 1993 Federal Election in South Australia we held onto marginal seats like Makin and Kingston, despite the odour of the State Bank being around because people separated out that. We lost those two seats actually in 1996 after the state election that wiped out the Labor Party. So people; there's plenty of evidence that people can separate federal and state issues. Now, obviously the brand names of parties can be affected. I'm not underestimating the impact of the Penrith result on the State Labor Party in New South Wales, but I don't think it ought to be automatically extrapolated that that's going to be the result in western suburbs seats in Sydney that Labor now holds.

Bevan: Ok, now let's go back to Christopher Pyne. You might want to comment on the Penrith result, but also I want to ask you about the mental health decision. That is the decision by the Federal Government's chief mental health advisor, John Mendoza to resign. He's complaining that the Federal Government hasn't made a decent commitment to metal health issues so he's jumped ship.

Pyne: He has. John Mendoza was the chairman of the National Mental Health Advisory Council. He made a very interesting remark upon exiting; not only did he say the Rudd Government had failed to invest in mental health, in its so called "health reform plan", but he also said they were taking credit for the previous government's actions in mental health, which were of course the actions and policies that I put in place as the Parliamentary Secretary for Mental Health and then the Minister for Aging with responsibility for mental health. He made it very clear that they had done nothing about mental health for the last three years and it sickened him seeing them trying to take credit for somebody else's work. And I make the point that not only have they tried to take credit for the work of the previous government in mental health, the one point nine billion dollar mental health package, but they're also rolling that back.

When I was the person responsible, I opened up Medicare to phycologists and to social workers so people with mental illnesses could continue to see somebody even if a psychiatrist wasn't available. The Rudd Labor Government have announced that will be ended from April next year. And the only extended it to April after an outcry after the budget when they chopped it in this year's budget. So they've basically given them a stay of execution. That will have a very real impact on people in the community who won't now have access to professional help because they won't be able to afford to pay for it. And unfortunately John Mendoza has shown that not only has the Rudd Government done nothing for mental health, but when it's put to proof about it, it tries to hide behind somebody else's work.

Bevan: This story is on the front page of the Australian today. They're quoting his resignation letter to Health Minister Nicola Roxon. It'll be interesting to know how the Oz got hold of that. Chris Schacht?

Pyne: ... (inaudible) Sure

Schacht: How did the Australian get hold of it? Obviously anyone who wanted to do anything to damage the Federal Labor Government or a Labor government anywhere, you just ring up the Australian and they will publish it as part of their overwhelmingly anti-Labor campaign in the Australian that's run endlessly all over the place now. I can't comment on the actual decision or that letter. I haven't seen it. I'm sure you'll approach Nicola Roxon to come on and explain the comment about the letter and the comments that Chris Pyne has made; the only comment I'll say to Chris is so this is one area you're guaranteeing if you're elected into Government that you will restore all of that funding, despite your promise to cut 15 billion (dollars) out of the budget elsewhere?

Bevan: Chris Pyne?

Schacht: The Federal Liberal Party.....

Bevan: That's a good question, Chris Schacht. Let's put that to Chris Pyne.

Pyne: Well, if we get elected later this year and I hope that we certainly do, we will have to look at the entire government's budget.....

Bevan: Come on, you've been belly aching about this. It's a good point that Chris Schacht makes. Are you saying that a Tony Abbott Government would restore this funding?

Pyne: It's not for me to make an announcement about our mental health policy on your program just because a former Labor Senator demands it. Why aren't you asking him to stand up for the fact that the Government has cut funds to mental health and the chairman of their hand picked board has resigned in disgust?

Bevan: You are complaining, your are complaining and I understand why. This man has resigned as a result of a failure to put more money into mental health. I understand why you're complaining, but it's a reasonable question.

Pyne: I will talk about our mental health policy at the appropriate time.

Bevan: Well, our listeners don't know if they're going to get anything better out of you.

Pyne: Well I'll tell you what we will do; when we were in Government we put one point nine billion dollars into mental health. This Government is trying to take credit for somebody else's work and is ripping money out of mental health. And when we announce our mental health policy, which will be in the next few weeks you will see exactly what we are doing in mental health. We won't be trying to pretend we've done something that somebody else did, which is in keeping with the Prime Minister and the Minister for Health.

Bevan: Let's go to Murray from Murray Bridge. Hello Murray.

Caller 1: Good morning. This super profits tax.

Bevan: Yes?

Caller 1: After the minerals have all gone, the miners just walk away and leave all these huge holes in the ground; just throw us a few pennies. Why don't the Labor Party show footage of some of these numerous huge holes in Australia and they might get some of the public's support behind them. We're going to be left with nothing and we're not getting much from the mines.

Bevan: Chris Schacht?

Schacht: It might in the terms of making that argument, whether it's the Government or the Labor Party do this in the election, I can't disagree; that we've got to make the point that once these minerals are removed they're gone forever. And we've got to make sure that there is an adequate return on the big profits some of these companies are making. Remember, the tax only is on profit, not on production and I think that in this political argument the Labor Party has a number of points it can make. If there is a criticism around it at the moment, maybe that's been lost in the arguments over the fine tuning of it and the way it was announced. But clearly a lot of people are commenting, "What is a fair share of some of these mines that make extraordinary profits." And I'm here in China, where now they're paying over 100 dollars a tonne for iron ore when five years ago they were paying 20 dollars a tonne.

Pyne: That's right and if they make a profit- the more profit they make the more tax they pay, obviously so we should be delighted that they are getting those kinds of returns from their iron ore because their paying higher taxes for it.

Schacht: The, the Super Profit Tax cuts in after they have made a reasonable payment, but when you get an extraordinary increase per tonne of the minerals that are in the ground owned by all Australian people, I think there's not a bad argument to have that in these cases that a further contribution is made back to the Australian people.

Bevan: Chris Schacht I think that where most of our listeners would end up in this debate- I mean there will be the hardcore Labor people who just think that whatever Kevin Rudd does is right and there will be the hardcore Liberal people who will say that whatever Tony Abbott does is fine, and then there'll be this bulk in the middle this group in the middle who will be scratching their heads saying "look I don't know who to believe, because you can't both be right". If it is just a tax on super profits, after they've made a reasonable return on their money, why would we have mining companies effectively talking about some kind of capital strike and they're not going to go ahead with mines or- so either the mining companies are playing hardball, and they're playing tough or we're not being told the whole story. Both sides can't be right.

Schacht: Well that is true and the Australian people in the end, in this coming election will end up making a choice and that's democracy of which (inaudible) I don't think anyone can complain about.

Bevan: Are you satisfied that the mining companies are wrong?

Schacht: I think they are, and this is my private view as someone who is in the mining industry I think there are a number of legitimate questions about the implementation...

Bevan: So it's not as simple as ""oh well (inaudible) when you make a lot of money, you get taxed""?

Schacht: I, I have to say I'm much more interested in a tax on production, um on profit rather than a royalty of a state system on production, irrespective of whether you are making a profit, you still have to pay a royalty and I think that that is a major advantage for the mining industry. However the mining industry has timing issues and implementation issues which I don't think the government can ignore and why I see public statements from the Prime Minster, the Treasurer and others in the last couple of weeks; they are the matters they are negotiating and I think that's reasonable.

Bevan: We've just been told that Penny Wong Apparently is just held up in a meeting with the Deputy Prime Minister of China so she's running a little late.

Schacht: I, I have to say that (inaudible)...

Pyne: It's my turn now...

Schacht: ...Who they say is going to be the next President of China apparently...

Bevan: We don't want; we don't want to upset the next leader of China

Schacht: And she's probably discussing with him the economic ties between both our countries, and both our futures...(inaudible)

Bevan: Chris Schacht for all you know Penny Wong and the Deputy Prime Minister of China could be listening to you two.

Schacht: Well I hope they are, I hope they are and they'll discount C2 and that C1 is on the money.

Bevan: Christopher Pyne

Pyne: Well Murray, of Murray Bridge who's fortunately named, he, he has raised an important issue about the Murray-Darling (inaudible-chatter)...where he comes from. He raises an important issue about the mining tax, but I think he sees it from the wrong perspective. The mining companies pay taxes through company tax and through royalties. They are an incredibly successful part of our economy and that is why their taxes help (along with everybody else's' taxes) to pay for hospitals, and roads, and parks and education and all the other things that we take for granted. Attacking the mining industry is attacking our standard of living in this country and that is why on the front page of The Advertiser today, you don't have mining executives who are complaining about the mining tax, you have Joe Barberis from Harris Scarfe talking about impact on the retail sector, you have Michael Brock from the real estate industry talking about the impact on the real estate industry, you have Ian Horne from the Hotels' Association talking about the impact on tourism and entertainment- I mean attacking the mining industry and reducing their viability and putting the Olympic Dam expansion and Prominent Hill at risk is a direct assault on our standard of living in Australia and if the Labor Party re-elected that will go ahead, and the only reason they are introducing this tax is because they can't think of anything else to do other than borrow money and rack up the debt and they will not stop their spending, its as simple as that. I mean the mining industry has built this country since the Second World War; we know longer ride on the back of the sheep but we ride on the back of the resources sector and this is a direct assault upon it.

Bevan: Paul has called from the Adelaide Hills to talk to the two Chrisses'. Hello Paul?

Caller Two: Hi how are you all?

Bevan: Very well 

Caller Two: Look, look I disagree with this principle that the land belongs to the people of the country; we're not a socialist country. We're a democratic capitalist country. The land belongs to probably one of three people; it belongs to either the federal or the state governments... (inaudible) or it belongs to the farmers who own the land, on a lease or how ever they own it, or it belongs to the indigenous people. So only those three people should get land depending who owns it - it doesn't...

Bevan:...Paul. No you hang on, I don't think your right Paul. I don't think that's what the law says.

Caller Two: Why am I not right?

Bevan: Well I just don't think that's right. Legally the farmer doesn't own the stuff that's under the ground. It's owned by the Crown. (inaudible interruption). Let's go to Chris Schacht, he's in the mining industry; is Paul right?

Schacht: No he's not right. He's not right on this particular point. He is right about the role of indigenous people through land title having a say, he's right about mining companies, and farmers having certain access issues, but the fundamental has been established that both major parties supported in government for a hundred years or more, and that is that the Crown (that is the government) owns the minerals under the ground and has the ability to pass legislation and regulations to give mining companies, or companies that wish to go and explore on that land, the right to explore, and under certain regulations establish a mine. The principle is that it belongs to the people through, or by the notion that the Crown is the people.

Bevan: Well, well lets go back to Paul in the Adelaide Hills, Paul are you happy with that?

Caller Two: Well I can't argue with that; that's the law. I think what the Labor Party is trying to do is trying to appeal to the lower section of the population who think that they are owed a living by saying, well were owed a living because they're (the mining companies) are making huge money. Whereas the average person who works for himself or those who have businesses themselves probably would not agree with this Labor Party principle at all.

Bevan: Well Paul, thankyou for your call. Paul from the Adelaide Hills and Christopher Pyne do you want to have a final word, its just gone half past ten.

Pyne: Well I think that the final word is that I'll be very fascinated to see what Penny Wong says today to try and get herself out of the mess that she created yesterday in the Sunday Mail by exposing the Rann Labor Government for making up the idea that the de-sal plant would reduce our reliance on the Murray-Darling, on the Murray in particular for our domestic water needs and I'll be listening to what she has to say with great interest.

Bevan: We've now asked if Penny Wong if she could join us at ten forty-five. We're told her media advisor is desperately trying to get her out of this meeting...

Well why couldn't she do a pre-record with you, why is she trying to avoid the scrutiny? She could have done a pre-record...

Bevan: Well, well I don't know. We don't want an international incident...

Pyne: I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if she missed out on having it at all today. I don't think she wants to talk about the story that's in the Sunday Mail.

Bevan: Let's, lets just give a- the final word to Chris Schacht, its twenty-eight minutes to eleven, you've got to be quick Chris Schacht talking to us from Shanghai.

Schacht: Well obviously Penny Wong will come on air at some stage and discuss those issues with her in the Sunday Mail (which I haven't seen). But I have to say, being in a meeting with the next President of the People's Republic of China is a very necessary thing in the national interest for any senior minister, Labor and Liberal, and any government in Australia and I don't think she ought to be criticised for that.

Bevan: And Chris Schacht you'll be back in Adelaide next week?

Schacht: No, no I'll be in Sydney on the way home next Monday and I'll do it from the airport in Sydney but I'll be in touch all this week the goings on in Adelaide and Australia.

Bevan: Chris Scacht thanks for talking to us, former Labor Senator, former State ALP secretary and the Liberal MP for Sturt Christopher Pyne, Shadow Minister for Education and Manager of Opposition Business the House.

Ends.