Transcript - Two Chrisses ABC 891 - 20 April 2009

Journalist:

Tom Koutsantonis: How can he continue as Minister for Road Safety? Christopher Pyne?

Hon Christopher Pyne MP:

Well I think there are two very important issues about Tom Koutsantonis. The first is: why won't the Premier do what is inevitable, which is move Tom Koutsantonis out of being Road Safety Minister? Now he might well decide to leave him as a Minister. That is a matter for the Premier. But there are many other portfolios that Tom Koutsantonis could do: Forestry, or Fisheries or Agriculture or whatever. But it seems to me transparent, and he admitted it himself - I think he said at one point a lot of people are probably out there saying how could you be the Road Safety Minister? He said it this morning on your program, and I think that's a very good question.

There are lots of things he could do. Being Road Safety Minister is not one of them.

Journalist:

So you don't say he's disqualified himself full stop from Cabinet? You're just saying, look if you're not going to sack him entirely at least sack him as Road Safety Minister.

Pyne:

Mike Rann's made it clear that he's not going to sack him, so therefore I think Mike Rann should, and I think he will inevitably bite the bullet and move him from Road Safety. So I think he should do it now rather than later.

Number two is how did Mike Rann interview Tom Koutsantonis when he wanted to offer him a Cabinet position? Or did the factions simply say: you have to have Tom Koutsantonis, and that's it. In which case, who is running the Government of South Australia? Because surely if Mike Rann had said to him ""What? You lost your license for three months, and you had thirty two traffic infringement notices?"" he would have said ""perhaps I'd better give you Agriculture rather than Road Safety.""

It seems to me that perhaps Mr Rann didn't have all the information, or if he did have all the information then perhaps he's lost control of who is what in his Government.

(Chris Schacht: agrees - at some length - that it is a problem for government. ""This issue is not going to go away for a while."")

Pyne:

You've had a good run. This story's gone in a different tangent now because - and I want to get this absolutely right - but my understanding is that this morning on ABC 891 Tom Koutsantonis said he would ""go away and check"" whether there are any other issues that would be germane to whether he remained as a Minister. So this matter is not over. And my understanding is that it was put to him by you two blokes: was there ever a time when he ""took the rap"" - I think you put it - for a family member...

Journalist:

He's used the words ""took the rap""...

Pyne:

He used the words ""took the rap"". He said he'd go away and check! So there's a lot more water to go under the bridge because those matters need to be confirmed or not confirmed and dealt with.

(Caller complaining about Nick Xenophon 'grafitiing' a supermarket sign.)

(Caller asks whether Pyne is running for Deputy Leadership, and also whether bipartisanship is possible in our Parliament.)

Pyne:

Well the first question first - I can give you the long answer or the short answer, you'll probably want to come back to ...

Journalist:

Well are you a member of a group - it's been dubbed 'the big swinging dicks'? It effectively sounds like a very macho group that can throw their weight around within the Coalition, and they're out after Julie Bishop.

Pyne:

The first thing is: let's be absolutely unambiguous about this. I am not a member of any group that is undermining Julie Bishop. We'll be completely clear. I am 100% behind Julie Bishop. I support her as Deputy Leader. If there was a ballot for Deputy Leader tomorrow I would not be a candidate, and I would be supporting Julie Bishop.

So there's no doubt in my mind - or Julie Bishop's mind by the way, who I speak to very regularly because we are good friends - that the suggestion that I am part of any kind of campaign against her is true.

Secondly can I say that Opposition are dog days - there's no doubt about that. And there are two types of people in Opposition. There are the people who try and get out of Opposition and back into Government, by holding the Government to account, by formulating policy, by trying to get hits in on the Government as often as they can, to get us back into Government at the next election.

And there are those people who don't have the wit or the capacity to do that, and therefore they spend all their time trying to tear people down within the same party and damage our prospects of winning. They will be in Opposition for 2, 3, 4 or 5 terms if they don't learn their lesson. We know who they are in the Liberal Party. They're not very good at hiding their tracks. They are destructive and negative forces.

The vast majority is in the former category. I am in the former category. Those people who are in the second category should get out, because they're not doing anybody any good.

Journalist:

Are you going to help your Leader expose these people?

Pyne:

My Leader is doing a perfectly good job at defending our Party and holding the Government to account...

Journalist:

But if you know who's undermining Julie Bishop, and that this is untenable, well who are they?

Pyne:

My experience in politics...

Journalist:

If it's not you?

Pyne:

Well it's not ""if it's not me"" - it is not me. I am 100% supportive of Julie Bishop and she knows that. My experience in politics is that peer group pressure is the most effective way of pulling recalcitrant people into line.

Journalist:

So is Malcolm Turnbull going to call these people into his office and bang their heads together, and say stop leaking, and stop undermining Julie Bishop?

Pyne:

What happens in politics is that colleagues know who is doing the damage. They know who's doing it. These people are not clever enough to attack the Labor Party and hold them to account, so they're not very clever at hiding their tracks. We know who they are, and so do my colleagues. Peer group pressure does actually work in politics, because it's not much fun being excluded and shunned when you're in Canberra twenty weeks of the year, and that will work.

The overwhelming majority of the Coalition is 100% supportive of Malcolm Turnbull and Julie Bishop. The situation in Opposition is that there will always be these kinds of ridiculous stories, and you just have to live with it, and get on with it. Now I'm getting on with it. I'm fighting the Labor Party. I'm formulating Education policy. I'm holding the Government to account, and I'm going to keep doing my job.

(Chris Schacht: It doesn't matter whether Christopher Pyne is involved or not - there are problems inside the Liberal Party. ""Being Deputy Leader of the Opposition? Goodness me - one of the worst jobs you could imagine""...)

Journalist:

Christopher Pyne, you know who you're talking about. Are we talking about a dozen people? Half a dozen people? Two or three?

Pyne:

One or two people can do this kind of damage. I believe it is one or two people. Look Schachty says that Christopher Pyne has admitted that there's leaking and infighting going on. Well you don't have to be blind Freddy to notice that there are people who are being anonymously quoted in the newspapers destabilising me, destabilising other people within the Coalition. And this is the great patheticness of these people. They hide behind the courage of talking anonymously, on background, off the record. They don't come out of the shadows and try and actually talk about policy. You only need one or two people to cause this kind of trouble.

Journalist:

And you've never done anything like that - to take out an opponent within your own party?

Pyne:

Most people would say that ... I'm a transparent and very straight-forward political player. That's why I have lots of good friends, and that's why I have opponents. And that is the simple matter of being in politics. You can go into politics for sixteen years and you can never offend anybody and you can leave politics without ever making a bump on the public consciousness. Or you can actually fight for what you believe in. And I am a fighter in politics, and I will leave politics at some point hopefully remaining someone who stood for something at some time in their life.

(Station break)

(Caller talking about Tom Koutsantonis' unacceptable behaviour.)

(Caller asks why the disloyal Liberals' endorsement to stand as candidates can't be withdrawn.)

Pyne:

Well it's easier said than done...

Journalist:

Are these rats in the ranks?

Pyne:

The problem is that you cannot identify these people because of course there is no evidence of them being entirely responsible. They haven't identified themselves...

Journalist:

Well how do you know who they are?

Pyne:

You know who they are because you're experienced in politics, and we all know that in politics. But the cleverness of their campaign is of course that they don't actually identify themselves in a way that they can be publicly named.

Journalist:

No fingerprints left.

Pyne:

No fingerprints left, and that's just part of politics. My view is that you've just got to get on with it, and keep fighting the Labor Party, and proposing alternatives, and showing up the Government and holding them to account, and that's what I intend to do. I'm in the former category of people who want to get back into Government sooner rather than later. And those people who are in the latter group, who want to stay in opposition forever: they have no place in any party that I'm a part of.

(Chris Schacht: Liberal Party needs to find candidates to run against them in preselection ballots. ""At some stage parties have to come together if they want to be successful at winning election."" Then mentions China's incredible wealth: three of the world's four biggest banks are now Chinese, before his satellite cut out.)

(Caller asks Christopher Pyne what he thought of Peter Dutton's description of the Prime Minister as a pig.)

Pyne:

Well I don't think people should be too precious about how they're referred to in politics. People have said all sorts of things about me, both on the record and off the record over the last few years, including the Deputy Prime Minister when I became Manager of Opposition Business in the House, so I don't think Labor people should be too precious about terms.

What Peter Dutton was referring to was the difference between Dame Edna Everage and Sir Les Patterson. Whether it was the right thing to say or not is a matter for him, but I don't think we should get too precious about these kinds of things.

(Journalist closes and goes to news.)