Transcript - Two Chrisses ABC 891 - 16 March 2009

(Greetings omitted)

Sonia Feldhoff / Chris Schacht:

(Discuss the need for an Independent Commission against Corruption to be created in South Australia following revelations surrounding the South Australian Jockey Club)

Christopher Pyne MP:

I strongly support an Independent Commission Against Corruption and I think it should be modeled more on the Queensland or Western Australian models than New South Wales. The New South Wales ICAC has too often been used as a political tool by various people's opponents to try and see them being referred to the ICAC on the flimsiest of evidence. We all know the story about the person being referred for potential corruption is much bigger than the story published months later on page 465 that the ICAC found there was no wrongdoing. With strict controls, with the potential for a prima facie case before a referral to the ICAC, then an ICAC is a very good idea for South Australia and the SAJC imbroglio would be a classic case of something that an Independent Commission Against Corruption would have been investigating.

Yes, I do support it. Martin Hamilton-Smith, the State Leader, supports it. He has a policy on it. Mike Rann and the Labor Party have consistently opposed it. I can't understand what the politics of that is: I don't see why Mike Rann and the Labor Party are so opposed to it. It doesn't seem to me to be either a Liberal or a Labor issue, simply a governance issue.

Feldhoff:

The idea of a Royal Commission though - is there any chance that we will see that being announced a year out from a State election?)

Pyne:

Well, whether there should be a Royal Commission or not I think is something that's hard for us to answer. I don't have all the facts in front of me. It's easy just to say: what we need is a Royal Commission. Royal Commissions are tremendously expensive. Royal Commissions require the appointment of a Royal Commissioner who can sit quite independently for a lengthy period of time. If you had an Independent Commission Against Corruption there would be no need to have a Royal Commission and therefore this is the time to adopt Martin Hamilton-Smith's policy of establishing an Independent Commission Against Corruption, the first job of which could be to bring together the reports of the Thoroughbred Racing industry of South Australia and any other reports into the SAJC and determine where to go from here.

Feldhoff:

How quickly could an ICAC be set up?

Schacht:

You'd need legislation. The Government would have to draft it, but because there are examples in three other states, you've got something to work from in drafting. It's a matter of the Government if it wanted to adopt it, putting the legislation through Parliament. It does require legislation. One of the powers an ICAC has to have is to go to the Federal Government and get the delegated power to be able to tap telephones and electronic information. All of the stuff that's come out overwhelmingly in ICAC investigations in other states is because of the ability to tap telephones, getting a judicial warrant under Federal legislation to tap a telephone. That is when some of the most interesting information has come out, that has forced people in the end to fess up and tell the truth. Whether a Royal Commission, all depends what the terms of reference are for this imbroglio in racing. I notice in the press Rod Sawford, the former Member for Port Adelaide, has asked that any investigation look at the background to the sale of the Cheltenham Racecourse. Rod had very strong views against the sale but if you had an ICAC they could automatically look at a broader range of things than a limited reference that a Royal Commission may or may not have.

Caller Steph:

... the fact that Queensland has it is due to the outcomes of the Fitzgerald Inquiry ... the one in Western Australia was due to WA Inc and things like that, but maybe this effort that's gone on with the SAJC might be a trigger for the fact that SA could do with an ICAC.

Schacht:

... it's put the ICAC issue, whether we should have one or not, back in the political debate. Between the two major political parties there is a difference. The Premier has said no. The Leader of the Opposition said yes, and clearly that will be maybe one of the issues at the coming State election. The public will make the decision of who they vote for and that may be one of the issues that helps them determine how they vote.

Pyne:

Particularly too, in the western suburbs, if the Labor Party Government runs from establishing an Independent Commission Against Corruption, there are three or four Seats that surround the Cheltenham racecourse where that will go down like a lead balloon because a lot of people in that area - Rod Sawford has been leading the charge amongst others - a lot of people would like to see an investigation into that entire issue and if the Labor Party, for whom they've all been voting down there (well not all but obviously the vast majority, it's a very safe Labor area) they've all been voting for the Labor Government for many decades. If they won't keep faith with their own people, that would be a very strong issue for an independent Labor candidate in three or four seats down there that are held by three or four Ministers, Michael Atkinson, Jay Weatherill, Kevin Foley, and Michael Wright.

Schacht:

And I'm sure that the Liberal Party, this is one of things in your wildest dreams you would like to see happen, three or four independent Labor candidates running ... which you will run dead as a Liberal Party in those seats and come third and give your preferences to the independent, as the standard practice of the two major parties ... what happened in Frome for the Liberal Party recently, and ... Hamilton-Smith has already said if independent Labor people get elected he'd be more than happy to talk to them to support if they would support a new Liberal Government. That is all in the dream area at the moment but clearly this could be an issue.

Pyne:

The thing about State elections though is that: sure, you're not going to get four, five or six independent Labor people elected, but it's the ones you don't expect that do get elected that make all the difference.

Schacht:

And that's what the Liberal Party wants. What you would try to do to the Labor Party in one of those seats is what the Labor Party did to the Liberal Party in the Frome by-election and that is a standard political tactic and it's been going on now for 20 or 30 years ...

Pyne:

... Norm Patterson, Martin Evans, Mount Gambier, Chaffey, Davenport ...

Schacht:

... the list is endless and we've all played the game on both sides of politics and we've all thought we're pretty smart when we do it to the other side and all get a big angry when the other side does it back to us. We'll wait and see whether anyone emerges but I just also emphasise, a State election is fought on a number of issues, not just whether it's an ICAC issue. The fundamental issues will be about the economy, about water, about health and about education, as they always are in South Australia.

(Call from Family First MLC Robert Brokenshire supporting an ICAC)

Feldhoff:

Do you think this shows that maybe the time is right more so than any other time for an ICAC to be established?

Pyne:

Well, between the Liberal Party and Family First, if they can put the pressure on the Rann Labor Government to introduce an Independent Commission Against Corruption, then good luck to both of them. I hope that they succeed.

Schacht:

You should point out that Mr Brokenshire was for a number of years a State Liberal Member for the Seat of Mawson in the State Parliament ...

Pyne:

... a very good Member, too ...

Schacht:

You would say that, Christopher, of course ...

Pyne:

... very sorry he lost his seat.

Schacht:

Yeah, well we were very happy we won it ...

Pyne:

We've got a new candidate for Mawson: Matt Donovan, who was preselected only last week ...

Schacht:

What happened to the previous Liberal candidate you selected, the former Member for Kingston - he hit the fence I understand?

Pyne:

Well perhaps we had better not go there, C1, we never know where that will take us.

Schacht:

... you're not telling me that that's an issue for ICAC ... no, we won't go there ...

Pyne:

Probably best if we don't go there. I'm not entirely across all the facts on that matter and neither are you. Nobody wants to get us into trouble, I'm sure.

Schacht:

No we're never entirely across the facts when it's embarrassing to our own party, that's always a good way out.

Pyne:

Rubbish. We've got a fabulous new candidate down there in Mawson. He's going to win. I'm looking forward to him joining the State team.

Feldhoff:

Christopher Pyne, what is Peter Costello doing is he causing Mr Turnbull (inaudible)...

Pyne:

Sonia that story is so dead. It is boring, boring, boring.

Feldhoff:

And yet it keeps going on

Pyne:

Only because people in the media keep referring to it. To be honest, this is a dull story and I'm so sick of people asking about it in the press. When I spent the weekend in my electorate, the people of Sturt were interesting in jobs, job security, how they were going to put the food on the table to feed their children, what their children were doing at school, whether self funded retirees or pensioners, the fact that they're feeling the squeeze because of the economy. Nobody is in the least bit interested in these inside the beltway issues about Peter Costello or anything else. It's just not worth entertaining.

Feldhoff:

Is Malcolm Turnbull's message getting mixed because of the whole Costello focus?

Pyne:

Malcolm gave a magnificent speech to the Federal Council on Saturday where he outlined that the Coalition would not support a flawed emissions trading scheme. We proposed a decent emissions trading scheme and in January Malcolm outlined an even better climate change policy where we're greener than the Government, and had a target. But we will not vote for, and we're not obligated to vote for, a flawed emissions trading scheme. He gave a tremendous speech and he is a fighter and the Australian public respect him for that and he knows exactly where we need to go economically because he's done it all before, as a successful businessman and I'm delighted that he is leading the Party in the very excellent way that he is.

Feldhoff/Schacht:

(Schacht mentions Sunday Telegraph story about the numbers of MPs who would support Costello, and Sunday Age article on Christopher Pyne. Raises reforms made by the Liberal Party Federal Council on the weekend.)

Pyne:

Well it is correct, the Liberal Party Federal Council on Saturday voted to modernise the Federal structure, even more than it has been modernised, to give the Federal Executive power to intervene in State Divisions that were failing or Federal Preselections that were embarrassing the party because of their poor handling. Schachty knows that state divisions and warlords who exist in all political parties in particular divisions won't be able to run the party into the ground. The Federal Executive will be able to intervene to protect the brand name of the Liberal Party and protect the interests of our side of politics, so those resolutions were all passed. Federal Council was expanded. Federal Executive was expanded. So all in all it was a very successful weekend, and quite surprisingly, and I'm sure C1 (Schacht) will share my surprise, Federal Councils when they try and move constitutional amendments are always a ding dong barney, but on Saturday it was a very harmonious event and the Federal Executive has finally been given the kinds of powers it should have had for some decades.

Schacht/Caller:

(Schacht says Labor Party passed similar resolutions years ago. Caller says Schacht isn't relevant to the Labor Party anymore and shouldn't do this program.)

Pyne:

Before we finish today Sonia, I must admit I was a bit shocked at the Robert Doyle comments in the Advertiser today about Adelaide. I just wanted to say to him, and to John Brumby, that my eight year old twins know that you don't need to diss other people in order to build up your own self esteem, and I think it's very sad when prominent figures in politics feel the need to build up their own self esteem or their cities self esteem by running down others, and it's very immature. Even eight year old twins can manage to know the difference between what's right and what's wrong. It's sad that John Brumby and Robert Doyle feel the need to run down others in order to build up their own flagging spirits... If he (Doyle) was in primary school today he'd be told he has to go to room 62 until he could learn how to treat his fellow schools mates with the respect that they deserve rather than running them down. It would be thoroughly deserved on this occasion.