Transcript - ABC 891 - Two Chrisses - 8 Sept 2009

SUBJECTS:Marathon Resources; Mining at Arkaroola; Privatisation

(greetings omitted)

Matthew ABRAHAM: If you're new to...the Two Chrisses, it's Chris Schacht, former Labor Senator and Chris PYNE, current Liberal MP for the seat of Sturt...quite a player in the Federal and State Liberal Party, matching their background knowledge, bringing us insights into the political process, that's what they do! ...now let's get into a few issues...some policy meat and the privatisation debate that is going on, Chris Schacht. You've been listening to this, you haven't spoken to the Premier or anything but you think you know what's going on...

Chris SCHACHT: Well, I haven't spoken to anybody but when it was announced last week, the legal case against United Water, and then I heard the debate take place, I thought this has the strategy of the Premier all over it. Picking the ground, making the place, and so the Liberals come and fight on a battleground the Premier wants, and that's why he's still the best political tactician in South Australia.

David BEVAN: Has he informed Kevin Foley what the strategy is, because Kevin Foley's coming on our program this morning saying 'Oh, you media are beating this up', and it's easier to quote that the Premier started this debate, the Premier said 'I want this election to be discussing privatisation.'

SCHACHT: What I'm saying is it's just one of the first spokes to go in the wheel...what I think and I haven't spoken to the Premier or the Labor Party about this...it's just my observation, and that's why the Premier is the best tactician...

ABRAHAM: ...Spin doctor...?

SCHACHT: Because he's just starting putting the spokes to go in the wheel for how the Labor Party, I think, will run the campaign.

BEVAN: Would he be worried that Kevin Foley wasn't quite on message this morning?

SCHACHT: The main thing is for the Premier, he's decided the strategy, the debate is taking place, Kevin Foley's in it, others are in it, and if there's argument about what Kevin has said or someone else has said, Rob Lucas, that doesn't matter. The debate is on the ground of which the Premier has chosen and that's why I've said all along, this bloke, the Premier, Mike Rann, whatever people may criticise him about, he's always half a step ahead of most people. The Frome by-election earlier this year, worked out the strategy, how Labor couldn't win, made sure the Liberals couldn't. That's the...tactically, he's just half a step ahead of them.

BEVAN: Chris Pyne?

Christopher PYNE: I'm shocked that C1 would be so praiseworthy of the Premier deciding to raise an issue which is years out of date. I don't think the average voter in South Australia is sitting around wondering about privatisation. Privatisation is as dead as the dodo bird largely because most of the large utilities and other sellable items from the Government have already been sold over the last 20 years, not just by Liberal governments but by Labor governments as well. I don't see this is a very clever strategy, I think it's a Premier who is looking around for something fresh to say and talking about something which is out of date and not an average issue that the voters are interested in...

ABRAHAM: ...isn't that the point, that even if the debate is a bit muddled, it gets privatisation up, an issue the Liberals had hoped was a dead issue? I'm wondering if you there's a risk there...

PYNE: ...well, I can't see what the Liberals would say about privatisation because there's no immediate issue of privatisation. The immediate issues that voters will be deciding the next State election on are hospitals, education, infrastructure, transport, the Magill Training Centre would be a smaller issue that they'll be interested in, not privatisation...of what? Is the Government about to propose the re- nationalisation or the nationalisation of an industry? Is that what Mike Rann's proposing?

BEVAN: Have you forgotten water...Christopher Pyne? Water?

PYNE: Water? Of course!

BEVAN: A few months ago it would've been the first thing you said would've been water. We've had a little bit of rain and everybody seems to have forgotten it.

PYNE: Water is still an still an absolute red hot issue, there's no doubt about that because the Government has not invested along the Murray on our side of the border in the re-plumbing of the Murray Darling that needed to be done in order to secure our water supply for the future. I mean, other issues like the fact they've employed so many more public servants at such gigantic cost. That they've had $5 billion in extra revenue over the last eight years, each year growing, and have not invested in any significant change to our hospital system. They're actually selling the Royal Adelaide Hospital on North Terrace, turning it back into parklands to build another hospital somewhere else when they have a perfectly good hospital where it is now! I mean, they're the issues people are going to be deciding the election on, not an esoteric issue of 10 years ago that doesn't bare any resemblance to people's daily lives.

SCHACHT: I just want to say last week Isobel Redmond, responding to the United Water legal action etc, said I wasn't even in Parliament when the Liberal Party did this. She immediately said I'm out of this. But today Rob Lucas comes on and starts talking about the detail of what happened in the '90s on water privatisation. That's why it's a good tactic for the Premier and the Labor Party is that though Isobel did probably the correct thing and say 'that's the past, I wasn't there, don't blame me', but there are people around like Rob Lucas who are responsible and they come on and they debate it. The issue goes in the way in which I think the Premier would like it to be seen...

BEVAN: Chris Schacht...do you think the Government will be let off the hook on the issue of water because we've had an average winter in terms of rains, the reservoirs are looking pretty good, they'll have the Goolwa Channel looking fine for the boaties and the tourism over summer...

ABRAHAM: ...and controlling the acid sulphate soils...

BEVAN: ...going from the election issue a few months ago, you said this will be the one that could toss out the Government

SCHACHT: I still think it's the vote changer if it goes bad for the Government. Now, clearly even this water debate started last week about privatisation, the Premier has added another dimension in the discussion about water. It's not just about the drying out of Lake Alexandrina, it's about privatisation, the cost to consumers of water, have they been ripped off?

ABRAHAM: Just because the Premier's a genius, does that mean...does that mean everybody has to fall for it? It's just a cynical...

SCHACHT: ...the Liberal Party come on your program this morning and start arguing. I didn't ask them to go and do that, they just came on and debated. So I'm what I'm saying is the Premier is declaring, is setting up a range of arguments, I still think in March of next year, if it's a hot summer and there are still scenes of empty Lake Alexandrina, still growers...still grape growers, horticulturalists along the River Murray can't get enough water, all of those sort of things, and there might still be in Adelaide some strong restrictions, the place will be looking dry, it still will be a debate. All I can say is I don't think the Premier's standing still to let it become three strikes and you're out against him. He is actually...and one of the things I heard them announce the other day...they're now supporting a referendum that the Federal Government constitutionally take over the running of the whole Murray-Darling Basin.

ABRAHAM: Haven't we...? What happened to the historic Water Agreement?

BEVAN: Yeah!

SCHACHT: Well...the point is he's taken legal action against Victoria. The thing I'm saying is, he hasn't stood still and allowed the punches to come on.

ABRAHAM: (laughs) There's a question of accountability here! We had Jay Weatherill beating his chest now as Environment Minister suddenly starting to rage against the upstream states at a conference of irrigators in Adelaide and you could see them, when they were interviewed on the ABC news. They were quite nonplussed, 'what's going on here? We don't have problems upstream.'

PYNE: Two years ago...well you've had a pretty good run. Two years ago we had a Federal election in which Kevin Rudd said if you elected a Labor government they'd be able to work with all the Labor State governments to fix the Murray-Darling Basin. We then had the Historic Water Agreement, so called, in which the veto stayed with the State Premiers. To this day we still haven't seen the investment in the re-plumbing of the Murray Darling Basin in order to save the water that's necessary to protect the river and also to protect the livelihoods of irrigators and towns along the Murray-Darling. Two years later, the Labor Government has managed to obfuscate and obstruct all the necessary work that needed to be done, including the Rann Labor Government and the Brumby Labor Government and Steve Bracks in Victoria. New South Wales and Queensland all still Labor Governments. John Howard on the other hand, in January 2007 proposed an effective takeover of the Murray Darling Basin by the Federal Government. The State Labor governments and Kevin Rudd stymied that and now we...of course...are still, they're wanting to run another election from South Australia on the idea that the Rann Labor Government has done anything at all about handing its powers to the Commonwealth and encouraging the other states to do so!

ABRAHAM: Chris Pyne...is the Opposition's case not helped by having a Treasury spokesman and Deputy Leader who seems to be missing in translation? Had to be apparently goaded in The Australian in to putting out his first press release last week?

PYNE: I'm not a spokesman for the State Liberal Party. As a South Australian I'm obviously interested in the issues that affect my family and my wife and myself and our suburb and our community and city and state and the world and the South Pacific and South Asia... But I'm not a spokesman for the State Liberal Party, that's really a matter you should put to Isobel Redmond and Steven Griffiths but I'm sure they're doing a very good job.

BEVAN: Who is the Shadow Treasurer?

PYNE: Steven Griffiths.

SCHACHT: Can I just say, because Chris Pyne and I both know the ladies from York Peninsula, Steven Griffiths represents... I went to a function a year or so ago when he'd just become the Member, had a long chat, it was for the local women's bureau of something...I'm just going to say, when he was at the function, he struck me as quite a thoughtful person, but the point is you cannot be Deputy Leader and Shadow Treasurer in an Opposition and the first thing you've got to do is every day think of something you can do to be on the front foot, attacking the Government, raising an issue, silence is not something you can get away with in Opposition if you hold that position.

BEVAN: Now, Christoper Schacht, you are not a lobbyist for Marathon, you're actually on the board, a company director, and last week we had the unusual sight of a Greens MP, Mark Parnell, siding with the vegan...

ABRAHAM: ...it's all coming together now! It's all making sense now!

BEVAN: Nick Minchin...and Iain Evans. The three of them got together to protest that your company, Marathon Resources, and anybody else by the way who wants to mine in Arkaroola, should be shown the door. And there's a front page story on this issue in The Australian today with a Canadian backpacker Abbie Larose having her picture on the front page...at the Arkaroola Wilderness Sanctuary in the Flinders Rangers. 'This area shouldn't be touched'.

SCHACHT: Well first of all, it says that she's the 'voice' of the Arkaroola Centre as an employee...she's a backpacker, has been for several months... So can I say yes there was publicity about that forum last week which had the leader of the conservative wing of the Liberal Party in Australia at a forum with the Greens and other people who are opposed to any mining at Arkaroola. We, our company has had the tenement licence to go and do exploration, not mine, to explore. The mining process has to go through an EIS statement, which we haven't even started even if want to. It's just about exploring and finding the size of the mine. Already, we believe...

ABRAHAM: ...why should we need to do that, shouldn't that just be off limits? Dick Smith said it'd be like mining the Grand Canyon, we wouldn't do it?

SCHACHT: Well Dick Smith has made his money elsewhere...let me say this is at least a $5 billion deposit...

BEVAN: ...how do you know?

SCHACHT: ...because already what we've explored and what we've declared to the stock exchange in inferred and indicative resource and at the present price it'd be around $5 billion.

BEVAN: What, uranium?

SCHACHT: Uranium. It's the second biggest deposit of...biggest single deposit of uranium after Roxby Downs.

BEVAN: We've got stacks of uranium, why do we need to go dig up something as precious Arkaroola?

SCHACHT: We do not have stacks of uranium. We have a lot. You take the Roxby Downs deposit out, we have lots of small deposits...on those other deposits...

BEVAN: Why would you take the Roxby Downs deposit out?

SCHACHT: I'm not saying that!

BEVAN: ...then why would you say it?

SCHACHT: ...we are saying to people, and the Premier has said this, the Government has said it, we have 40% of the world's uranium in South Australia, mainly at Roxby Downs but we have lots of smaller, medium-sized mines...we are the next biggest potential. If the mine went ahead, and only if the mine went ahead after it's gone through a proper EIS proposal and it was economic. We estimate we'd be paying anywhere up to $50 million a year royalties to the State Government.

ABRAHAM: Can we just nail this then? You're saying that, and you're a Director for Marathon Resources, that Marathon Resources for you the Arkaroola Wildlife Sanctuary and you've got the EIS and all that is not off limits as far as the company is concerned? If you can, you'll mine that.

SCHACHT: If we meet all the EIS and do it in a way that meets all the requirements, yes. We believe we can do it. It's a wilderness sanctuary is what they're declared but it's actually a pastoral lease. Let me say, we have spent up to $15 million exploring over the last five years. That's shareholder's money, many of them are small South Australian shareholders who've got shares on the company. Secondly, we've paid close to over $1.5 million in the last four years for our staff to stay at the Arkaroola Centre when they're doing work and that has been at commercial rate they're very happy. No, no, we pay them to... The argument is people say please leave but we have reached a commercial arrangement with the Arkaroola people to have our staff stay there and pay the full commercial rate

BEVAN: But that's not a reason to allow you to go in and rip up the sanctuary

ABRAHAM: You're saying they're happy to take the money

SCHACHT: Secondly ... that mining lease for exploration, the tenement for exploration, has been there and there's been tenement leases all over Arkaroola endlessly for 40 or 50 years...I just want to finish on the point that we will not be able to go in and mine unless we go through an independent environmental impact statement where everybody will have the opportunity to argue their case and we don't...we've never asked for anything else. If we can't win that argument about Arkaroola, and it is a pastoral lease by the way...

BEVAN: Can you think of any mining proposal that's got to the point of an EIS which has been knocked back on the basis of an EIS?

SCHACHT: Well I have to say...look at the one for Roxby Downs, it looks like the BHP wanted to put a desalination plant.

BEVAN: That's not knocked back...the expansion is going to go ahead.

SCHACHT: Well before it can go ahead you've got to do an issue with where the water is coming from. All I'm saying is...

BEVAN: ...projects might be, there might be some tinkering around the edges, but the projects go ahead don't they?

ABRAHAM: We should go back to Christopher Pyne, who may be enjoying listening to the Chris Schacht Hour...

SCHACHT: ...with the...Nick Minchin...

ABRAHAM: Chris Schacht! Chris Pyne, I should say! Chris, don't sue...

PYNE: ...I'd almost picked up my little folder and go back to my office, they didn't want me here! My take is that given the extraordinary public scrutiny that's going into whether Marathon Resources will be able to exploit the mine at Arkaroola there will be a very, very thorough EIS and thorough system process to see whether that can happen. They're not going to be able to go under the radar, if you like, which is an extraordinary...which is a good thing. There are many hurdles in the path of being able to mine in Arkaroola, if they can overcome those hurdles through meeting the requirements of the State Government and probably the Federal Government well that'll be a matter for the law and the requirements of the legislation.

BEVAN: Well you fall a long way short from Nick Minchin's' just leave it alone'.

PYNE: I haven't made this an issue of supreme interest for me. Obviously Arkaroola is very important for South Australia but I've got issues on my doorstep like the Magill Training Centre, which is an international disgrace which I'm very interested in. I've got issues to do with overhead cabling as part of the National Broadband Network which is going to vandalise my suburbs, so we all have to take an interest in the issues that are important to us locally and Arkaroola is very important but Nick Minchin seems to be making that a cause celebre for himself and I've got other issues I pursue like the School Stimulus debacle and the Youth Allowance. I don't want to be a jack of all trades and master of none. I'm sure the rules with respect to mining in national parks are very strict. If Marathon can overcome them that's a matter for Marathon.

SCHACHT: By the way...it's not a national park, it is a private pastoral lease of which the Spriggs family. They have declared it a national conservation reserve. It is not a national park like the State Government has declared in the Gammon Ranges. It is a private conservation area, it has significant environmental issues...

PYNE: ...let's not forget that the Gorgon project. In WA had to overcome enormous environmental considerations to do with Barron Island, so often these mining projects have to jump through hoops to be able to succeed in even starting. If Marathon can do that, that's a matter for Marathon and the State and Federal governments to determine.

ABRAHAM: Chris Pyne, thanks so much for joining us this morning.