Transcript - ABC 891 - Two Chrisses - 28 Sept 09

SUBJECTS:   Water as an issue in the State election; Magill Training Centre; Asylum seeker politics

(greetings omitted)

Matthew Abraham: This is interesting. Now both of you have said consistently in this that water will be a major issue at the next State election and how the Government is seen to have handled water and how the Opposition is planning to handle water will be a big issue. How does a fantastic Spring rain, a bumper crop leave us? I mean, in terms of psychology of the state, Chris Pyne, does it make life harder for Isobel Redmond?

Christopher Pyne: I don't think it makes life harder for Isobel Redmond and I think it's good news for the economy, good news for the farmers and I don't think that hurts Isobel Redmond. I think what hurts Mike Rann though, I think, is the sense that we go from year to year hoping for a good Spring rain and bumper crops and we haven't put into place the infrastructure, the engineering that's necessary to stop a ludicrous situation like Mt Bold Reservoir overflowing and the water just disappearing not being used. I mean...I spoke to people on the weekend who aren't that interested in politics...out at Newton and the thing that was on the tips of their tongues, was, why hasn't anybody built the infrastructure to make sure that water either flows to other reservoirs or flows back to the Murray or whatever. The idea that it just be flowing over the top of Mt Bold, I think has made people very angry. So even though it's going to be good crops which is great for our economy in South Australia because I think still we still have a huge reliance on agriculture, it's 8yrs of Labor Government and still the sense that they haven't done the work on water that will make water a big issue at the election.

Abraham: Chris Schacht?

Christopher Schacht: Well first of all, I don't know whether it's physically possible to build further dams where Mt Bold is or extend the size of it. You've got to have a proper geological structure like a deep valley to dam it and I don't know whether that is available.

Pyne: But there's pumps and things C1, you can have all sorts of things.

Schacht: Well where do you pump the water to? Now that would have to be a big pump. I still think water will be a strong issue, a very strong issue and the issue that is still I think big in South Australia is the management of the Murray Darling Basin and we have the Liberal Party promising at the State level that they want the Federal Government to take over complete control of every aspect of the management of the Basin. You have the Premier taking other States to the High Court to free up the water allocation. I think this will still be a big issue irrespective of good Spring rain, which is welcome, particularly from our farming sector. I think by March next year we don't know what summer we're going to have but everybody knows the real issue is the Murray Darling Basin.

Pyne: C1 you wouldn't have seen this, this morning because you're in Hong Kong but Kevin Foley was in the Tiser this morning talking about how he's got a lazy $45m to throw around out of the Corrections budget and he said he was looking for a needy cause. Apparently Jane Lomax-Smith and Tom Koutsantonis have been lobbying him for it but I think most voters would be thinking, what could be needier than ensuring that if we have a good rain we don't lose the water off into the Gulf? What's wrong with stormwater management and this Mt Bold Reservoir water being used properly? I mean, $45m would go a long way to building the infrastructure or the engineering to ensure that water is saved.

Schacht: Well I'm not going...I haven't seen the article of course or his comments but all I can say is I think we're going to have spend a lot more than $45m over the next few years. We're spending well over a billion in the desalination plant for starters. We have spent a lot of money on the River Murray up in the Riverland area, on putting pipes. You know the many...I have to say both Government's have done that but the real issue for the long term future of South Australia and Adelaide is the Murray Darling Basin and that will be I still think a big issue at the State election. Who is best to handle it?

Abraham: Let's go to the Adelaide Hills and to Joe...hello Joe.

Caller Joe: Hello double Chrisses, Chris squared. My comment, this morning was raised with Environment Minister Weatherill, the Onkaparinga River needs environmental flows. What's going over the weir is the river's share. We're in the plight with the Murray now because we don't give it environmental flows. What is Mr Pyne's comment on that?

Abraham: We had a number of calls and texts to that affect, Christopher, about the Onkaparinga getting some environmental flows so the water gong over the spillway there would be good for the 'Onka'.

Pyne: Sure. Well environmental flows in terms of priorities for South Australia at the moment, while the Onkaparinga might well need environmental flows, the big debate for the next State election is not going to be about the Onkaparinga River, it's going to be about the Murray Darling Basin and while the Onkaparinga River might effect a number of seats it doesn't effect the entire metropolitan Adelaide and the Riverland and the Murray Bridge etc, etc in the way that the handling of the Murray Darling Basin does. So while I have sympathy for the caller's question, as a priority it's important but is it as important as the fact that the Riverland is essentially going out backwards because of a lack of proper management and that there isn't what we need in Adelaide in terms of our drinking water?

Abraham: Now I don't want to crush the egos of the two of you, and I know that's probably...

Pyne: Well I haven't got any ego to crush!

David Bevan: Well! What an ego is a good thing to say!

Pyne: A little humble is what I'd say...

Bevan: Wendy of Brahma Lodge says 'you've got to be joking! For this half-hour I do the vacuuming.' But now, you're missing the best half an hour...well one of the many best half an hours that we have.

Pyne: But then how did Wendy know that we were on? How did she? She's sending a text message or phoning in but doesn't want to listen to the show? Good on you Wendy!

Bevan: She was just waiting!

Abraham: Wendy I think you really, you can turn your vacuum cleaning off and you'll see a very wounded ego there! For somebody who doesn't even have an ego...

Pyne: I have an ego. It's crushed.

Abraham: Craig from Woodcroft, hello Craig.

Caller Craig: G'day. Guys how're you? Yeah, I'm really disappointed that we're letting water out to sea. I know we've got to flood the Onka and everything like that but it's just another spin Rann's putting on it again. Like...I'm a swinging voter and I voted for Rann at the last election but this election I just feel like giving it to the Independents because we're sick of it.

Abraham: Well it will be an interesting election for Independents. We'll pick that point up with the two of them because I want to also look at the Liberal Party and the threat it's facing with the Nationals and the Independents as well.

(break)

Caller Bill: Now Christopher Pyne I've lived at Clarendon for 50yrs. My wife's born here and been here 68. Now that weir has gone over sometimes 6ft over the weir. It's always gone over and the last 2 or 3 yrs it hasn't but you know the pipeline goes through to Happy Valley and tops that up which it's doing now. You can't save it all and the river needed topping up down there so you know you can't just blame the Government and mind you I'm a member of the other side. But you just can't blame the present Government. The Liberals bought land off of me in the late 60's to build the weir and they never ever did it so you've got to get your facts straight when you start poking your finger at people.

Pyne: But Bill just because something wasn't done properly in the past doesn't mean we should keep doing it badly into the future. My point is that if there's extra water in Mt Bold, and I'm glad that it's been pumped into our local reservoir or our local dam but let's not waste a drop of it. Now if you spoke to farmers at Virginia or Riverland fruit growers and dismissed this as a problem that's always been there. You know, it's a wet year but there is nothing that we can do about it they would be aghast. I mean if Kevin Foley has got an extra $45m of taxpayer's money lying about to spread to a needy cause, surely not wasting not one drop of water at Mt Bold Reservoir would be a very needy cause.

Abraham: By the way, this quote that you're referring to is in the Australian 'Mr Foley, speaking to the Australian from an overseas defence trade mission said, At the end of the day replacing Magill was a cheap option for us as we were able to sell large parcels of land and spend just $5m'. Chris Schacht, the Magill Training Centre - when we see these mixed messages from Government - one is that only last week. Now we're being told, if we rebuilt a new Magill it would threaten our AAA credit rating and now we've got the Treasurer saying 'look, at the end of the day replacing Magill was a cheap option'.

Schacht: Well you may remember on last week's program I predicted that because of the pressure growing over the Magill issue that I expected at some stage before the next election. I didn't expect that within a week, that the Government would find the money to build a new facility to replace Magill and that's exactly what happened.

Abraham: So you don't do it because it's the right thing to do, you do it because you're starting to take a hit?

Schacht: Well I talked about the politics. The governments will respond under public pressure, part of the democratic process and I said then I thought there'd be a chance and it has happened. Governments of Labor and Libral have always responded like that and all those people who were asking for it, including Chris Pyne, now must be quite happy that their pressure has succeeded.

Abraham: But what about the credibility of a Government that maintains it can't afford it and then, ah, the money was always there?

Schacht: That's a question you will have to put to other ministers about that. I just predicted last week that whatever the message coming out was that the Government would do what it's just done! I wasn't surprised at all.

Pyne: C1 what you're basically admitting, and it's a perfectly fair enough point to make, is that without the pressure of the United Nations Youth Association and John Gardner the Liberal Candidate for Morialta, in which the Centre is based, and Isobel Redmond's policy they'd fix it, without that pressure, the Rann and Foley Governments would have been quite happy just to let those young children basically become hardened criminals in the Magill Youth Training Centre.

Abraham: Are you saying that your local candidate raised it?

Pyne: The United Nations Youth Association first started raising it. I gave you and the State Opposition the letters that came out of that. You'd been running the issue for months. John Gardner wrote a column for the Advertiser two weeks as the Liberal Candidate for Morialta.

Abraham: When all the heavy lifting had been done?

Pyne: Well 2 weeks ago Jennifer Rankine was saying they couldn't do the work because it was going to put their AAA rating.

Abraham: You're not putting this down to the local Liberal Candidate.

Pyne: John Gardner, the Liberal Candidate for Morialta did a fantastic job.

Abraham: Say it again? What's his name?

Pyne: John Gardner, the Liberal candidate for Morialta! He wrote a column 2 weeks ago. The United Nations Youth Association was making a grass roots campaign. You guys were running it on Matt and Dave ... Isobel Redmond announced that the Liberal Party would get rid of it.

Abraham: I think you've got the order wrong.

Pyne: No you get all the credit. A little bit came in towards the end.

Abraham: I think David Cappo eventually kicked a few bums.

Pyne: And then he embarrassed the Labor Government by raising it at the so-called Social Inclusion Ministers Conference, which was supposed to be a lovey-dovey 'everyone gets to say how marvellous they are'...it turned out to be a complete public relations fiasco because Monsignor Cappo said actually right here, 10 mins away we've got the Magill Youth Training Centre which is an absolute abject disgrace! Rann was so embarrassed he didn't even go to the press conference! He left Julia Gillard to carry the baby.

Schacht: Can I just say for Chris Pyne to complain that Government response to pressure. When he was in the Howard Government for 9 years it did nothing basically on Aboriginal affairs and then said, shock horror, that we've got a real problem in the Northern Territory. We've got to put a couple of billion dollars into it...the point is, that as the pressure builds...and it did build. That suddenly after 10 years of doing or after 9 years discovered the $2billion and everybody said it was a good thing....

Pyne: ...good job trying to defend the Government but last week Jennifer Rankine said we could't afford to fix the Magill Training Centre because it would affect the AAA credit rating!

Abraham: ...I'm going to turn the vacuum cleaner back on because you two keep talking over each other so much...Christopher Schacht finish your point.

Schacht: My point is the Howard Government for 9 years it did nothing basically on Aboriginal affairs and then after 9 years discovered that there was a big issue because people are raising it and the money was suddenly provided. That is part of the democratic process when Governments are in and there is pressure. There is nothing wrong with that...that is part of democracy. I welcome it.

Abraham: Chris Pyne, who is pointing yourself for some reason...

Pyne: I don't want to talk over C1 because I know the listeners get very upset.

Bevan: That's why she vacuums...

Pyne: Good on you, Wendy. I don't know if C1 listened to Jennifer Rankine on your program last week but I did. When she was trying to say to listeners that in fact the whole AAA rating excuse was just a great big trick, just a rouse to give them the time to find the apparently cheap option that was always there of $5m for the Magill Youth Training Centre. She was trying to maintain that that was all made up, that they were just taking the heat for the fun of it and that really there was nobody concerned about money at all and it had nothing to do with the AAA rating. What we know is what's happened here is that the Government was quite happy to do absolutely nothing because they think that pack em, rack em and stack em is politically popular except what they found when it comes to kids it's not popular. Because people would rather see young people not turned into hardened criminals and to be given opportunity to get out...

Bevan: ...you'd know that very well from your experience in Government?

Pyne: Well that's a whole other issue. The reason we need to separate children from their parents is that they want to be separated...

Schacht: Do you put them into neo-concentration camps?

Pyne: What are you going to do with all of the Asylum Seekers that are coming to Australia at the moment, C1? Put them on Christmas Island where they can't be seen? I know they'll all be overflowing to Darwin Detention Centre soon. And it won't be long before they're in Baxter because there are thousands coming to Australia.

Schacht: ...and they weren't sent to Nauru or to pacific islands and forgotten.

Pyne: They're out of sight, out of mind...

Schacht: They're dealt with and processed properly whether they are genuine refugees or not...and not left like kids to rot in jail like in Nauru in a semi-concentration camp, in Nauru or somewhere in the Pacific.

Abraham: Chris Pyne do you think they will need to reopen Baxter, which has sort of already been decommissioned?

Pyne: Well they're going to reopen Darwin Detention Centre...they'll be able to be seen now, of course by the public whereas in Christmas Island they're hidden away. ...the Government has changed the policy, has been too lenient and as a result people smugglers are now applying their evil trade again and as a result thousands...I think 9 boat arrivals in the last month? Of course there's no room on Christmas Island. So they'll fill up Darwin Detention Centre and then of course the moment...the red letter day will be when Baxter reopens because, of course, there won't be enough space in Darwin.

Abraham: But isn't what you're saying by...your policies didn't work?

Pyne: Our policies did work! They did work because Asylum Seekers stopped coming here. We've now got people smugglers saying to their customers in Indonesia and Malaysia and to everywhere else in the world 'we can get you to Australia, we can get you VISAs'. And that's why the number of Boat People is going up, that's exactly why they're going up. People are willing to pay to go and if not they will go elsewhere.

Schacht: ...and as a result of their policy, for several years we've breached UN policy on refugees. Locked them away on remote island countries where they often cost us tens of millions of dollars to have those camps built. And we ended up having a real problem in terms of kids being untreated and locked up for years...that's what people got upset about. Now of course there's always going to be People Smugglers, etcetera.

Pyne: But Labor...

Schacht: ...the people who will be taken to Christmas Island and Darwin under what the Labor Government is saying will be appropriately dealt with and assessed for whether they meet the UN refugee status or whatever. We're not going to let them rot in a semi-concentration camp where no-one can see or hear from them, out in the middle of the Pacific Ocean.

Bevan: But what about the middle of the desert?

Schacht: Well at least that's in Australia. Instead of bombarding a poor country like Nauru or PNG and taking to camps in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. That was the real sitting latitude of the Liberal Government under John Howard.

Pyne: Labor said before the election that they were going to fix all of this...it's what they regarded as an outrage. They've changed the policy since the election to actually encourage more people to try and get to Australia and now, of course, they've got a major problem with People Smugglers getting to Australia and what on earth are you going to do about it? Besides, just now, the empty rhetoric from five years ago?

Abraham: Can we just go back to the Howard Government policy?

Pyne: Temporary Protection VISAs meant that People Smugglers couldn't promise potential customers of their service that they would get residency in Australia. Labor removed Temporary Protection VISAs and so People Smugglers are able to say to potential consumers of their service they can get you to Australia. We can almost certainly get you permanent residency. That's why they're coming to Australia in thousands and Labor cannot get away from the fact that they cynically use this issue, knowing that it's a very difficult issue, to help themselves to get elected and now they haven't got the first clue about how to...

Abraham: ...it seems that a signal is going out that it's easier to now...to get a ticket into Australia.

Schacht: No I don't. What I am concerned about is this increase, if it's true, will be...not like what Chris is implying, which is thousands of thousands. It is several hundreds and when we compare what other countries are doing with refugees, I think, coming without proper VISAs into the country, we have nowhere near the problems like countries in the South Mediterranean like Italy or France or Spain. It not, and secondly, if you're worried about the actual letter of the law, how many people come into Australia on Qantas or international flights and claim to be a refugee. And how many people do overstay their VISA and therefore are illegally who come from European countries including Great Britain, overstay their VISA and thereby break the law but Chris Pyne never screams about them?

Pyne: They almost invariably go back.

Schacht: But they still break the law and are still illegally in Australia.

Pyne: They do go back, or might seek permanent residency in Australia.

Schacht: Some of them stay for a long, long time...

(ends)

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