Today Show

06 Mar 2015 Transcipt

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
Interview – Today Show with Lisa Wilkinson and Anthony Albanese
Friday 6 March 2015

SUBJECT: Bali Nine.

LISA WILKINSON: We are joined by federal Education Minister Christopher Pyne and Labor frontbencher Anthony Albanese. Good morning to both of you.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning Lisa, good morning Anthony.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Morning, Chris.

LISA WILKINSON: Christopher, I will start with you - elite military vehicles, fighter jet fly-overs, decoy vehicles, riot squad police. You would have to say right now that President Joko Widodo rather than listening to the Australian Government's pleas for clemency is treating these men like prize catchers, he’s thumbing his nose at us right now, isn't he?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: To be fair to the Indonesian justice system and President Widodo, he is treating the Australian prisoners the same way as all the other foreigners in Indonesia facing death row.

LISA WILKINSON: No, that is not true, Christopher. One of the other drug smugglers to face the firing squad left in an unmarked van to go to the same island facing the same death.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: And I think that is much more appropriate but I think to try to characterise President Joko Widodo as thumbing his nose at Australia is not something that a federal Cabinet minister is going to endorse, Lisa.

LISA WILKINSON: But you are apologising for him, Christopher with the greatest respect

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I'm certainly not doing that, Lisa. I'm completely opposed to the death penalty.

LISA WILKINSON: But he is treating these two prisoners differently to the others facing the same firing squad on the same day?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, the Australian government's response, which so far has been a model of maturity and totally supported by the Opposition in a very bipartisan way, has been to be calm and to be sensible. It certainly hasn’t been to try to pour oil on the fire. We want President Widodo to grant clemency to these two Australians. We certainly don’t want to get into a fight with the Indonesians which causes them to get their backs up. It will not be able to save these two men's lives by insulting President Widodo or the Indonesians. We have taken a very firm line with the Indonesian Government and the Foreign Minister asked the Ambassador in last night for an explanation for the photographs of the police chief with the two condemned men. We could not have been more clear about our position on the death penalty. And we have even offered a prisoner swap with the Indonesians to save these people's lives, but the way to do that has been the way that has been the way the government has reacted, supported by the Labor Party which is what I'm outlining to you this morning?

LISA WILKINSON: Anthony, what do you think of the way President Widodo is handling this? It does all seem to be bells and whistles for the cameras.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: I'm not sure that getting into personal criticism of the President of Indonesia is going to be constructive. The issue here is that Andrew and Myuran are not a threat to anybody. It is very clear that they have been rehabilitated and are indeed contributing a positive - as positive role models in the Indonesian system. Indonesia should be taking some pride out of that. It is appropriate that the Foreign Minister call in the Indonesian ambassador as she has done because quite clearly, this was over-the-top, the footage that has been seen of their transfer. It is important - part of the reason why we oppose the death penalty is because we respect the dignity of human life. People deserve to be treated with respect and that is the case in terms of Andrew and Myuran.

LISA WILKINSON: Christopher, both the PM and the Foreign Minister have mentioned consequences if the executions go ahead. What form will those consequences take?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well we flagged that obviously our relationship with Indonesia is very important and it does transcend these kind of issues when they occur from time to time. But there does have to be consequences for the relationship for the Indonesian Government not to grant clemency to Andrew and Myuran. That in the fullness of time will become clear. Right now our priority is to try to save those two men's lives. What the Prime Minister was saying yesterday, which I thought was very powerful and potent, was that they are an example of how good the Indonesian penal system can be when it can rehabilitate two drug smugglers into both productive and constructive members of the Indonesian penal system rather than putting them to death, they should be held up as an example of what Indonesia can achieve so that Indonesia can achieve so that Indonesia does not win by putting these men to death. Indonesia in fact shows that being rehabilitated did not make the slightest difference to those two gentlemen.

LISA WILKINSON: And Anthony, what response would you like the see from the Government if these executions go ahead?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: I think at this time it is not the time to put forward threats. It is a time to put forward very strongly the case to Indonesia, including that some of the consequences should be obvious to the Indonesians itself. It is about Indonesians standing in the international community, Indonesia is a G20 nation. They are growing at a phenomenal rate. They have a rising middle-class, they are increasingly important, not just in our region but in the world. And they detract from themselves - this will hurt Indonesia. Modern, advanced nations do not put people to death as a result of a government decision. Governments should not put people to death. And I think Indonesia needs to recognise that it is in its own interests as well as in the interests of the people-to-people relations between Indonesia and Australia - it is not just governments, people watching this show will have a view about Indonesia as a result of how it responds. And I think that there is an opportunity for Indonesia to get an overwhelming warm response if they say, "We have listened to the international community." Listen to the jailer themselves; the head of the jail where these two men have been has himself spoken about their rehabilitation. This is an opportunity for Indonesia to do the right thing, if it does that, it will receive praise internationally. If it doesn't, I think the international community will draw its own conclusions.

LISA WILKINSON: Well that Indonesian ambassador will be meeting with Julie Bishop this morning. It will be interesting to see what comes from that. Christopher Pyne and Anthony Albanese, always good to see you on a Friday. Have a lovely weekend.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Thanks Lisa, thanks Anthony.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Always good to see you in the morning after a Souths win, Lisa.

[ends]


Tags: Today Show,