Sky News Richo and Jones

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
Sky News Live Richo + Jones with Graham Richardson and Alan Jones
Tuesday 10 February 2015

SUBJECTS: Federal Budget, higher education reforms, Newspoll results, superannuation, tender process for Australian submarines.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: In the Canberra studio is someone who doesn't hate us I don't think yet…

ALAN JONES: Not yet.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: …but I haven't finished with him yet. Christopher Pyne, the Minister for Education, welcome to the program.

ALAN JONES: And he's also the Leader of the House, and I just think in that context just to explain to our viewers what exactly that means.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: He controls the Government's agenda.

ALAN JONES: [Interrupts] He'll tell us.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: It's his job to get everything through…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Ah.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: …and he's failed anyway because they've got nothing through. Was that what you was about to say?

ALAN JONES: [Interrupts] Would you keep quiet? Just keep quiet. Chris?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, hello Graham and Alan. Thank you very much for having me on your show and I think that there's more chance of you winning an ASTRA than Labor delivering a surplus any time in my lifetime. And I think Alan gave that 1000 to one this morning, and you've given yourself 100 to one for the ASTRA. So I think even Alan recognises that he might – there's more chance that he'll win an ASTRA award than Labor would deliver a surplus. So the Leader of the House basically runs the Government's schedule in the Parliament. We run it, we make sure that the bills are going through the House of Representatives in a timely fashion, we run Question Time, all the things that are to do with Parliament. So the Treasurer runs the Budget, the Prime Minister runs the Government, the Leader of the House makes sure it all happens.

ALAN JONES: Mmm. Go on, you first.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Now - now, well I've got so many things to ask [inaudible]…

ALAN JONES: [Interrupts] Well that's his first point. I mean, we've had all this nonsense, really, this week about leadership and headlines and so on.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Oh!

ALAN JONES: Surely the biggest issue – I mean, you've had terrific success, the Government, on things they said you couldn't do. You wouldn't be able to repeal the carbon tax, the mining tax, you wouldn't turn around the boats. But you did say you'd retire the debt and straighten out the finances, and that's proving very difficult. How, then, do you go about this notion whereby there's this extraordinary level of debt where you've had advice now – you're in the Cabinet – from the Governor of the Reserve Bank no less – unprecedented. He's never spoken to Cabinet in the eight years he's been the Governor, but he felt it so important that he would brief you on the fact that it's costing taxpayers $110 million a day to pay the interest on the Labor debt and to run the country. Now, it's clear we can't go on like that, isn't it?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, it's absolutely clear that we can't go on like that, Alan. For the – the Labor Party racked up a massive debt that was rising to $667 billion over the course of the next few years if nothing was done. Now, Glenn Stevens, the Reserve Bank Governor, was never invited by the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd Government into the Cabinet Room because they obviously had all the answers. Now, their only answer was more debt and more tax and more spending. Now, Graham will say they had the global financial crisis. Well, the Howard Government had the Asian financial crisis and in that, because of the good management by Peter Costello and John Howard, we were able to give money to Indonesia and other countries to support them through the Asian financial crisis. Instead, Labor spent money, gave $900 checks to dead people and horses and cats and budgerigars, built $16 billion worth of school halls, which could have been much better spent, had the Pink Batts disastrous programme, where they spent billions putting them in and then a billion taking them out and four people lost their lives because of it.

So this Government's not going to make those same mistakes. We're getting on with good government and as Alan pointed out, we stopped the boats, which the Left said was impossible.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: But I want to say if you've done so brilliantly, if you're so clever, Christopher – and you obviously are – and you've had all those successes, then things would be going really well. You'd be miles in front in the polls and the Prime Minister would be laughing. Instead of that, he scrapes through a motion this week where 40 per cent of his own party don't want him and the public are rejecting him in droves. Newspoll, which you believe in and every other pollie believes in, absolutely devastating for you and you sit there and pretend that it's all wonderful, you've done a great job. You must be the worst communicators in the history of the world or the job ain't so good.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, present company excepted, of course, I'm sure you meant to say, Graham. I think there's a couple of lessons…

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: [Interrupts] Of course, because you are a brilliant minister.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: [Laughs] Couple of lessons that we've learnt from the last 16 months: one of those, which I'm sorry that we had to learn it again, is that disunity is death. Disunity is death in politics. The Newspoll reflects that disunity is death in my business and your former business. You know it and I know it, so the Newspoll is reflecting that the Australian public want us to focus on them and on what's good for them to make their lives easier and stop internal naval-gazing. That's one lesson that I hope we've all learnt from the last few weeks. The other lesson we learnt from last year is that we must make sure that the Senate doesn't descend into a circus every time the Government wants to make an important legislative change to our agenda.

Now, we've got the carbon tax through – abolished the carbon tax – we got the abolition of the mining tax through, the direct action plan through, changes to the temporary protection visas through, about 80 per cent of the Budget is through, but the media love focusing on the circus of the Senate and this year we have to calmly and methodically work through our arrangements with the Senate because Labor and the Greens are going to be economic vandals and cheap jack populists. We have to work with the crossbenchers, who I hope are not either of those things.

ALAN JONES: Right. Just on the economic vandals – Graham doesn't agree with me here, but on that very question it seems to me that once you attempt – and this is in Greece, in Spain, in Portugal, and now Angela Merkel in trouble in Germany – and let's face it, the Greece government was wiped out simply because they wanted austerity measures. They wanted Greece to pay their way. Once your Government has raised any number of measures to try and retire that debt, the headlines went after Abbott. If they didn't go after Abbott, they went after Hockey. If they didn't go after them, they went after you because of your education reforms. And yet the welfare bill this year of $149.9 billion is 6.1 per cent greater than it was last year, more than double the rate of inflation. We cannot as a nation go on like that passing that debt on to Graham's seven-year-old son. Where are you going to get an issue which Shorten and the Senate and the newspaper proprietors and the public at large are going to agree?

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Hey, give me a – give me a break. Rupert Murdoch so far supports them. Every paper is rabid; it's the same in every capital city. And you're… the newspapers, the newspapers support this bloke.

ALAN JONES: [Interrupts] Comrade. Comrade. Comrade, I didn't ask you the question, I asked Christopher the question.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: [Interrupts] Yeah, well it's irritating me. I'm angry.

ALAN JONES: Where do we get an issue – where do you get an issue which can make an impact on this dreadful issue of debt?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well Graham, don't get angry it's bad for your blood pressure, and you're in no position to be getting angry and forcing up your blood pressure. You have to be calm and methodical about everything.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Well then I shouldn't be sitting around with you two, that's for sure.

[Laughter]

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well we're very calming influences. If Labor win the next election we will go the same way as Greece and Ireland and Portugal and Spain and Italy, there is no two ways about it, because Labor have not learnt any of the lessons from the disastrous Rudd-Gillard-Rudd Government. They believe you can keep borrowing, you can keep spending, you can give everybody in the chocolate shop exactly what they want, and that there is no responsibility, there is only rights to taxpayers' dollars. Now, we need to – and I take your point, Alan, about finding an issue that unites the country. National security, obviously, we have done a great job in the last 12 months. We've fulfilled many of the promises that we took to the election. We have struggled with the Senate, there's no doubt about that, and we have to recognise that Labor and the Greens will do nothing to help. But I'm making progress with my higher education reforms, and I'm growing in confidence that they will pass the Senate because I have spoken to the crossbenchers…

ALAN JONES: [Interrupts] Can I interrupt you there on higher education, because, Graham, this is a very, very valid point. What this man inherited was a Gillard Government that thought she was the education prime minister. She removed all the caps on entering university. Anyone can go, and it means that there's now 12,000 or more people going into university who haven't even passed the HSC. Forget that. But she provided no money. And every person who goes to university is entitled to the HECS, so this has added – am I not right in saying – massively to the education budget? Remove the caps on who can go, but don't provide the money.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Look, it's massively added to the education budget and Labor cut $6.6 billion from higher education at the same time, forcing the vice-chancellors to enrol as many students as possible without a price signal so that the degree at Melbourne University in, say, law is exactly the same as the degree at any other university in Australia. So the vice-chancellors had to enrol students rather than have a value added to those degrees so that students would know, so that consumers would know, which were the degrees with the high value that cost more and which were the degrees that cost less so that they could make their own decision about which course they wanted to do for whatever reason. Now, we're going to fix that. We're also going to introduce the biggest scholarship scheme in Australian history so that disadvantaged kids can go to university for free, so that they don't have to pay at all. And I think that is a fair way. Scholarships is a fair way of recognising that there's no such thing as free education, and somebody has to pay for it, and that all of the other students who are not on scholarships will go through the HECS system where they will make a contribution to their education about 50/50 of the cost to taxpayers, with taxpayers paying the other half so they can go on to get a private benefit as individuals in Australia. It's a very fair reform.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Why do you say you're growing in confidence? I see no sign in those crossbenchers of a majority for you on these reforms. And by the way, every time Bill Shorten gets up and says, we in the Labor Party will not allow $100,000 degrees, he makes up ground.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, Bill Shorten…

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: He makes up ground.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Oh, Graham, Bill Shorten, Bill Shorten. The empty vessel makes the most noise, Graham, and in Bill Shorten's case he is a very, very empty vessel.

ALAN JONES: Correct.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: All he does is try and find some glib zinger, as he calls them, to try and get votes, but the Australian public are very common-sense people. They know that somebody's paying for their education.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: [Interrupts] And that's why – that's why he's in front of Abbott in the polls by about a mile. I mean give it a break.

ALAN JONES: [Interrupts] Well, we're not – we're not – Graham, Graham, Graham, Graham…

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: I'm asking you, though, what you get confidence for? I hear nothing from the crossbenchers that suggests you're going to get it up.

ALAN JONES: Graham we are not – we are not – with the great risk of all of this talk that you're going on with is that we're asking Christopher Pyne and Tony Abbott to introduce poll-driven policies. We cannot be governed by the polls. There are certain things that have to be done in the best interests of Australia. Can I just say something to you though, because we're running out of time, that will warm Graham's heart and we're going to have a look at this next week. And I have raised this with you before and if I may be bold enough to be critical, I'm not sure that the Government's got its head around this: the concessions to people on superannuation every year, approximating $50 billion. You as a Cabinet minister are on over $180,000, Graham as a broadcaster is on much more than that, I'm on a little less.

[Laughter]

However – however, if after $180,000…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Oh dear, you've got a pimple on your tongue, Alan.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Right.

ALAN JONES: If after $180,000 I choose – and I just say this slowly – to put my money into super I'll only pay 15 cents in the dollar. If I left it as income, I pay 45 cents. Why should I, on $180,000-plus, get a 30 cent in the dollar concession in the current economic climate? Shouldn't we simply say in an ideal world that's terrific, it's a big incentive for you, Alan, to save and look after yourself later on, but it's unaffordable? If we reform that, there are savings of $20 billion and $30 billion. Hasn't someone got to get their head around this in government and simply say these – we're looking at this next week, but these concessions are unaffordable.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, Alan, I'll try and answer both questions, yours and Graham's, starting with Graham's. I'm growing in confidence, Graham, because the more I speak to the crossbenchers the more they realise that the current system is not viable. The status quo in higher education is not tenable. They know it, the 39 vice-chancellors know it, and they are lobbying them and explaining to them. The more the crossbenchers are finding out about the crisis that Labor left and the cuts that they made, the more that they are approaching me to talk about how we could negotiate a proper outcome here, which is good for students and good for universities. That's the short answer. In terms of Alan, because I know we're running out of time, the purpose of the concessions for superannuation, of course, is so that people can look after themselves in their retirement financially, rather than be on the Australian pension. Superannuation is one of the best things that this country's done in decades. I take my hat off to the Keating and Hawke Governments because they initiated it, supported by the opposition, the Howard and Peacock oppositions in days when oppositions did things like that, and it's been one of the great benefits to our country economically. So the purpose of the concessions is to get people looking after themselves rather than relying on the pension. Of course, you make a good point and in difficult times things need to be discussed but there are no plans in the Government to change the concessions for superannuation at this point because we recognise the overall benefit to the economy in the future of people taking care of themselves.

ALAN JONES: But in spite of those concessions and the notion – the virtue of the concession is to encourage people to provide them for themselves in retirement and go off the Government, go off welfare – 85 per cent of people who are in a superannuation fund of some kind are on a pension. The systems ain't working.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Yeah, exactly, I agree with that. Listen, we've got to go. But before we do I have a question. A last question, you are a [inaudible]…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Not another one. Another one?

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Another one. You are a South Australian Senator, is there going to be…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No I'm not; I'm not a South Australian Senator.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: You're a South Australian I should say, sorry, sorry.

ALAN JONES: You're nervous; you're going to have to settle down.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: I am, I am, I - I - well, you've got me angry. I'm…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: You're making him nervous Alan, you called him comrade…

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: And so are you.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: …I think that made him nervous.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: And so are you.

[Laughter]

Now I just want to ask is there going to be a proper tender process for the building of the Australian submarines?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well the Kinnaird Report into defence procurement and Malcolm Kinnaird, who unfortunately passed away in the last year, was a very stalwart member of the South Australian business community from Kinhills – founded Kinhills, the engineering business. He did a report into defence procurement in the early 2000s and outlined a method to acquire large defence platforms like submarines. That included the necessity to have a competitive evaluation of what was on offer and that is exactly what the Government will do.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: That didn't answer the question.

ALAN JONES: It does.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Will there be a tender process for the submarines or will you…

ALAN JONES: Yes, yes and there'll be a competitive evaluation…

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: What, you're answering on behalf of the Government are you?

ALAN JONES: Well he answered that; there'll be a competitive evaluation tender.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: He ducked.

ALAN JONES: He said there'd be a competitive evaluation tender.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Yeah but he didn't say that they were building the submarines; he's keeping it vaguer than that. He's keeping it vaguer than that because he needs to, don't you?

ALAN JONES: We'll look at that after the break.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, Graham, don't forget you have to ask the Labor Party this question: when they were six years in government and Defence were telling them that they had to make a decision about the submarines and they put it off and put it off and put if off, why are they in a position to lecture the Government when they were utterly incapable of making the decisions that needed to be made in government?

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: You forget, Christopher, no one criticised the Gillard and Rudd governments more than I do but that doesn't change the fact…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I never did.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: …that when he was walking out of the room, the old prime minister of our country did a side deal with [inaudible] that South Australia will pay for and that's going to be a big, big, big problem for you and it ain't going away but we have to leave it. You can argue with me later, yes.

ALAN JONES: Okay we'll leave it - we'll resume that after the break.

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: But we've got to let Christopher Pyne go because he wants to go to dinner. I'll see you later, Christopher. Thank you very much for your time.

ALAN JONES: Thanks, Christopher.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: That's a great shame, the next time. Next time.

[Laughter]

GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Indeed, next time. We'll be back just a moment on Richo and Jones.

[ends]

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