Sky News Richo

29 Jan 2015 Transcipt

E&OE TRANSCRIPT Interveiw - Sky News Live Richo with Graham Richardson Wednesday 28 February 2015  SUBJECTS: Higher education reforms, decision to knight Prince Philip. GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Thanks for your company here on Richo. Well I always love talking to Christopher Pyne, our education minister. I think he's a real character and there aren't that many characters in Australian politics. Too many of them are too boring but he is facing an uphill battle. He's been trying to get his education reforms, higher education reforms, through the Senate for the last six months and getting absolutely nowhere and when you listen to this interview, you get the impression that while he's there and trying and pushing, he's still not going to make it. And I think the problem is that it's not just the crossbenchers, it's the fact that I don't think Australians in general have bought these reforms even if every professor in the country and every vice-chancellor has. Have a listen to this: Christopher Pyne welcome to the program. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Thank you Graham, it's good to be with you again. Happy New Year to you. GRAHAM RICHARDSON: And the same to you. But it isn't a very happy New Year for your party or I'm not even sure for you. Now I want to just try and understand what's happening with the higher education reforms because I'm lost. I've tried to follow it but there seem to be so many different views, I heard you this morning say that you are encouraged by the words of the crossbenchers which I find pretty astounding because the words I've seen from the crossbenches would not give someone like your good self much encouragement whatsoever. So tell us what is encouraging you? CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well I'm always encouraged, Graham, because I think the alternative is a rather pointless existence, I don't want to be discouraged, I want to keep moving forward and the reality is the Government is absolutely committed to our higher education reforms because they're right for students, they're right for universities and they undo the damage of $6.6 billion worth of cuts that Labor introduced when they were in office. Now what I'm hearing from the crossbench is that they are prepared to talk about these reforms. At the end of last year, four out of the eight crossbenchers voted for a second reading on this bill. Since that time we've accepted all of the [inaudible] amendments, including dropping the 10-year government bond rate for the interest indexation on the Higher Education Contribution Scheme. I think the crossbenchers are even more aware now than they were then that the sector is calling for reform, that nobody wants the status quo and they're making suggestions about ways that we can work together to bring about reform. That's certainly what I'm hearing from Nick Xenophon. Nick Xenophon is saying these are a number of suggestions that he's going to put forward. Now if we can meet their concerns on the crossbench then I don't think they'll have any other excuse not to vote for these reforms. On the other hand if they vote against them well I would have done the best I possibly can to try and reform universities. GRAHAM RICHARDSON:             But it seems to me that you've got Muir, Lambie against, can't see them changing, Lazarus again can't see them changing, Wang I can't see him changing and it looks to me as if Day and Leyonhjelm were saying if you give any more away they won't vote for it either. So I mean you're losing on both ends, it seems to me. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well Graham we have to prove in Australia that we can govern, that we can bring about macroeconomic reform. This is a real test for the Senate. The Labor Party are being politically irresponsible. The Greens we know are politically irresponsible. In Labor's heart of hearts they know there needs to be reform and that they'll be pilloried by the university sector if they don't negotiate. John Dawkins has called for the passage of the Government's bills. Gareth Evans, who are all former colleagues in the Cabinet, have called for the passage of this bill. Maxine McKew recently, Andrew Leigh the current shadow assistant treasurer – Labor figures know this reform is necessary and this is a test for the Senate. Can this country achieve macroeconomic reform or if there is a loud minority opinion that is prepared to rally against the Government, will the Senate always cower in the face of that and refuse to reform what needs to be reformed? Now the whole sector… GRAHAM RICHARDSON: [Interrupts] The best policy in the – Christopher, the best policy in the world doesn't work unless you've got 39 votes in the Senate… CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Correct. And this is a test. GRAHAM RICHARDSON:             I still can't see the 39. I really can't. It's like, I'm trying to, I… CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     But Graham you're playing - you're playing the political game of the numbers, what I'm saying to the Senate… GRAHAM RICHARDSON: No, no, no I - listen, trust me, I no longer play that game. I might have 20 years ago I don't now. That doesn't mean that that counting is irrelevant. If you can't get 39 votes you can't get it up… CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     No, of course it's not. GRAHAM RICHARDSON:             …And what I'm saying to you Chris, because I can't see 39 votes. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     And what I'm saying to you, Graham, is the Senate needs to look inward to itself and recognise that the Government has proposed far reaching macroeconomic reform that is supported across the entire higher education sector. Me, as a Coalition minister for education, has uniquely united the sector behind reform. If the Senate cannot face the fact that there needs to be reform and votes it down then it will be effectively saying that the Senate is not prepared to reform universities in this country and it will effectively be saying that the country is ungovernable with this Senate. GRAHAM RICHARDSON: I would concede that that's one interpretation of a failure to vote for your reforms. The other one would be, of course, that the polls show they're going down like a shower of you know what and they're tyring to say well this is a democracy - if the majority of Australians don't want it then we won't allow it. I mean which way do you go? CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     But I think you'd find Graham – I think you'd find Graham if there was a poll taken today on the death penalty it probably would be supported by the Australian public. If there was a poll taken on whether people want to pay income tax, income tax would be opposed by the Australian public. Governments don't govern on the basis of the polls, they govern on what's good for the country and what is good for students, for the university sector, to repair the damage of Labor is these higher education reforms and that's what I'm going to try and convince the crossbenchers of. But at the end of the day if the crossbenchers can't bring themselves to vote for it then it will fail and it will be a signal to the world and to the Australian public that this crossbench is not up to significant microeconomic reform. GRAHAM RICHARDSON:             Well I notice you made another comment, which I frankly found encouraging, that you were going to sit down with Labor as well. So are you going to sit down with Bill Shorten and have a chat to him about these reforms and whether there's any chance of Labor shifting especially after the comments of Joe Dawkins today? CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well Graham I've been offering to meet with Bill Shorten and Kim Carr since last May's Budget. I've said it publicly, I've said it to Kim Carr, I've said it to Bill Shorten and today I've written to Bill Shorten outlining a process by which he and I can sit down and negotiate an outcome that we know the university [inaudible] – we know is good for students and the university sector. He apparently in the Middle East has already ruled it out. Before he's even back in the country, he's already said he won't negotiate. Now he's going to keep lying about $100,000 degrees. He's going to keep lying about students from low SES backgrounds not being able to go to university because of increased fees when he knows that students can borrow every dollar up front through the Higher Education Contribution Scheme and he knows that there is no possibility of $100,000 degrees for an average degree for students in Australia. But he wants to run a scare campaign. Now I want to give him the opportunity to be bigger than that. Apparently he is bigger than that. GRAHAM RICHARDSON:             He also knows, though, that when you borrow this money you've got to pay it back. Now, can you… CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Sure. GRAHAM RICHARDSON: …inform us all how is it, as we stand right now are people paying it back, is there a percentage of people who are failing to do the right thing? CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Eighty-two per cent of the debt is collected. In Britain it's 52 per cent, in Australia it's 82 per cent. So the vast majority, four-fifths of people, are paying back their debt. That is a very high figure and the reality is the enrolments of students at university, in spite of Labor's scare campaign, has not gone down this year. In fact, it's either the same or gone up. So students know that they can go to university and borrow through the Higher Education Contribution Scheme and the demographic of students from lower SES backgrounds has increased continuously since HECS was introduced. So all this scare campaign is just that, it's lies and Bill Shorten knows it's lies and Joe Dawkins, as you point out, he belled the cat today. He said this is a policy that Labor has been responsible for for 30 years and yet Bill Shorten and Kim Carr and the left of the Labor Party are trying to pretend they can take the country back to some Whitlam-esque nirvana that never existed. GRAHAM RICHARDSON:            But it really isn't just them, I think as I said to you last year when I was in hospital last October, I had nurses coming up to me absolutely terrified of what they thought was going to happen to their fees and I mean it just seems to me that there is a fear out there in the community that so far you and - and I'm almost saying singularly you rather than plural because it's your job, you're the one that's got to convince Australians that you're right, it just seems to me that in the sector you might have got the university professors on side but it doesn't seem to me you've got too many of the troops on side. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well that was before we dumped the 10-year government bond rate when you were in hospital with your nurses because I remember this conversation… GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Yeah. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     …because we had it on this show. In fact now we've gone back to the CPI, the Consumer Price Index indexation, so there's no possibility of the increasing debt that some of those nurses were worried about. But of course a lot of people would rather pay absolutely nothing. GRAHAM RICHARDSON:             Well yes there is because - no hang on, if the fee for the course goes up they've got to pay it off for longer. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     And they can't pay more than eight per cent of their income and they have to earn up to - over $108,000 to pay it. At the moment at 50,000 they pay two per cent of their income. Now, honestly, for the private benefit that students are going to get they're actually paying 50 per cent of the cost on average of their education for a major private benefit. Ask them to pay 50 per cent and only start paying two per cent of their income after 50,000 is a very good deal. GRAHAM RICHARDSON: I tell you what, I wish I could get some of it, that's for sure. My finance… CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     A very good deal. You'd never get a better loan in your life. GRAHAM RICHARDSON:             No my finance costs a little bit more than that from what I can gather. Now look I want to - I mean you would probably have met, would know and certainly would read Greg Sheridan. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Sure. GRAHAM RICHARDSON: Now, not known as a rabid socialist and Labor Party stooge and just want to read… CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Not that I know of. Not unless he's a very good spy. GRAHAM RICHARDSON:             Well, he's not that bloody good. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     [Laughs] GRAHAM RICHARDSON:             Now I'll read out his comments this morning: “Giving Prince Philip and Australian knighthood is the worst decision of Tony Abbott's prime ministership. At every level, it is dismaying. It is wrong in principle, strategically mistaken and tactically disastrous. First, to principle. There's no place for knights and dames in Australian honours. They were abolished in 1986 by Bob Hawke and not restored by John Howard. They correspond to no Australian social reality. They have no general acceptance or broad legitimacy within Australia.” Now I could have picked a number of different commentators this morning. I can tell you I'll be certainly in my rant at the start of the show, I've done that, I've gone through a whole lot of them because there are so many to pick from, mate. I mean doesn't this dismay you? If it dismays someone like Greg Sheridan and it dismays a massive majority of the Australian people, it must dismay you. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, Graham, the Prime Minister has dealt with this today; he has pointed out that there will be more consultation in the future over the potential knights and dames, and I think that is a very sensible step. Given the reaction from the public, and from the commentariat particularly, since Australia Day, I think it's a valuable lesson for us all to learn that you can't consult too much about important decisions like this. GRAHAM RICHARDSON:             But it's got nought to do with that, he didn't need – surely a Prime Minister in this day and age would not have needed to ring anyone at all; you would know enough about the Australian people to know how this decision would go down, to know that your own troops would be, to use the word of Greg Sheridan, dismayed. Disgusted would be another word, shocked and appalled would be others. I mean, I can't tell you the people I've spoken to in your party, and very wealthy benefactors of your party, who are just…I guess it – they're just gobsmacked by this, they can't believe he could do something this stupid. How – you can't just say ‘oh, it's the Prime Minister's decision, he handled it today’. This is one of those moments you don't just handle today. It hangs around like a bad smell. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, what do you really think about it Graham? Give us your [laughs] unvarnished view. GRAHAM RICHARDSON:             Well I read out what others think about it, my opinion you'll definitely hear tonight, trust me. But I just – I'm worried about the Prime Minister and the fact that he could make the decision. That's what I'm worried about; aren't you? CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     In my day-to-day I'm dealing with higher education reform, as you know, it's the biggest agenda item of the Government in the legislation coming up in February. I'm dealing with the review of the national curriculum, which is important. I'm dealing with the teacher quality issues around training at university for teachers. And I'm not going to be distracted by something that is really, in the great scheme of things, is a minor issue in comparison to the issues that the Government faces; that the Australian people want us to get on with and fix. And we are going to do that. Debt, the deficit legacy left to us by the Labor Party, the political irresponsibility of the current opposition – these are all the kinds of issues that we're dealing with daily, and I don't think that giving a knighthood to Prince Philip is the most important issue facing me today. GRAHAM RICHARDSON:             No you probably don't, but it gets more publicity than higher education fees and more publicity than the debt and the deficit or all the rest of it. That's the problem you've got, you get off-track. Everybody talks about the Government, nobody talks about the opposition. But, and this is the great thing about being in charge of these shows, I get the last word. We've got to leave it there. Thank you very much for your time Christopher, I always appreciate talking to you and you know it. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     It's a pleasure, thanks Graham. [ends]