Sky News PM Agenda with David Speers

E&OE TRANSCRIPT Interview on Sky News – PM Agenda Date: 3 February 2014 Time: 4.30pm SUBJECT: Independent Public Schools DAVID SPEERS: ...programme as we mentioned at the outset, the Education Minister, Christopher Pyne, as he promised at the election campaign, today announced $70 million to encourage more public schools to become independent public schools. What does that mean exactly? Well, the Minister joins me now. Welcome. Thanks for your time. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Thanks, David. DAVID SPEERS: What is your vision of an independent public school? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I'm very passionate about this initiative that we've announced today because where we're seeing independent public schools introduced, like in Western Australia and to a lesser extent Queensland, because it's just begun, and in a State like Victoria, which has high levels of autonomy for some time, we see that the outcomes for students are improved. So if you're in education about students first, independent public schools, which gives more autonomy to local schools, will lead to better outcomes for students, and all the international and all the domestic research says that the more autonomous a school the better outcomes for students. DAVID SPEERS: Are we seeing that yet, that students are actually performing better? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, in Western Australia it's been in place for four years. They had an evaluation, which was released last year after about three and a half years, and said that all the green shoots were very positive for independent public schools, but it would probably be five years before they saw the full benefit. But the measure of the success in Western Australia is that people are clamouring at the office of Peter Collier, the State Minister for Education, asking for their schools to be independent public schools. They have a list much longer than they can get – that they can currently satisfy of schools that want to be independent public schools. DAVID SPEERS: So just to explain what it means in practice, the school still has to teach the same curriculum. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Of course. DAVID SPEERS: They still have to pay the teachers the same pay rates. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: The same, correct. DAVID SPEERS: They still have to take kids in in their local area. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yes. DAVID SPEERS: So the independence or the autonomy is limited, to a degree. What exactly can they do? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, they're government schools except that the principal and their leadership team has a school board with local people, local government, business people, professionals, parents who help make the decisions in that school. In Western Australia, they are a one-line budget item in the State Budget. So it says X school and an amount of money, $18.5 million for example, and the principal and their leadership team decides the priorities in that school. DAVID SPEERS: So the priorities being okay, we as a board believe music is a very important thing. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Sure. DAVID SPEERS: Or sport… CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Exactly. DAVID SPEERS: …is a very important thing. They can decide, can they, we're going to build a music studio or we're going to build a hockey ground? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: They will decide within the discretionary money at their disposal how many English teachers they need, whether they pursue Indonesian or French, whether they have a science or music bent, how much they invest in agricultural subjects, et cetera. DAVID SPEERS: But from the one pot of money? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Correct, and it's their money, they decide how it's spent. DAVID SPEERS: Okay, but what… CHRISTOPHER PYNE: More importantly, though, they choose their staff. So gone are the days in Western Australia, in independent public schools, where the Department of Education sends David Speers to a school be they're looking for a job, regardless of whether the school wants David Speers. In Western Australia… DAVID SPEERS: I bet they want him…[laughs]. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: ...heaven forbid [laughs]. In independent public schools, the principal says we need two language teachers and they use the internal pool and they might get 200 applications and they choose the teachers that they want. DAVID SPEERS: But getting back to the idea of a public school representing all the kids in that area, if they do decide to do, you know, take a stronger line on sport, for example, and the kids in that area aren't particularly good at sport, where does that leave them? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, a school wouldn't be excluding anybody on the basis of, you know, whether they were good at sport or not good at sport. DAVID SPEERS: No, but it suddenly becomes more focused on music or sport or whatever it is… CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well… DAVID SPEERS: …that might not be the right fit for some kids in there. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, there are always options and many schools have a focus. In my own electorate, Marryatville High School has a music focus. No one says that Marryatville High School is not serving the local community. It means that they have a specialty. Brighton High School… DAVID SPEERS: But in city areas that's easier to do because there probably are more options. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: And not every school will be an independent public school, but there are many that will be. And in Western Australia, many rural and regional schools have gone down this path because local communities recognise that they have a lot more buy-in to their school. I've been to great Western Australian independent public schools where they have a whole lot of programmes in, you know, tough areas, low SES areas where they have programmes for parenting, for people who are just out of gaol, for employment programmes all run on the school campus so that the families in those schools who have children in those schools, the whole community is lifted, not just the children. DAVID SPEERS: Some communities, higher socioeconomic communities, are presumably going to be able to put together stronger management boards. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: But that hasn't been the case in Western Australia. DAVID SPEERS: Right. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I expected years ago, when this was touted, that schools in affluent suburbs would be the ones that would embrace public – independent public schooling, but the opposite's been true. Communities in low SES suburbs of Perth and across Western Australia have embraced independent public schooling because they see this as their opportunity to break the cycle. DAVID SPEERS: And are their school boards as good as those in the higher… CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well they have – they all have to reach certain thresholds. They have to be assessed by the Department of Education in Western Australia, so that there are about 11-member boards. They have to be able to show to be an independent public school that they have the kinds of people on the parenting body, on the parent body. DAVID SPEERS: So who gets knocked back? So it… CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Schools that don't measure up to that assessment. DAVID SPEERS: So the State Education Department would say look… CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We don't think you're ready. DAVID SPEERS: …we've had a look at your board, we don't think it's good enough. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We don't think you're ready yet. We're glad you want to do it. Let's give it a year or two. And I think Federal money in this $70 million will be used, I assume, in our negotiations with each of the States and Territories – which will be one-on-one negotiations – will be used for that kind of reskilling of principals, leadership teams, bursars and parent communities. DAVID SPEERS: Just on that, the $70 million, you did say in your election promise that the Coalition will establish $70 million independent public schools fund. This fund will provide grants directly to a school. Today, however, you said that the money will go to the States. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, that's – it's a nuance. Effectively, the money will be going to schools, but obviously we have to work with the States and Territories in delivering it. DAVID SPEERS: Was that something the States insisted on? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, I don't think so. The truth is that the delivery of all programmes from the Federal Government have to work through the States, whether it's the chaplaincy programme or, for example, this new programme. DAVID SPEERS: And those schools that are denied the chance to become an independent public school because the Department says no, we don't think you're quite ready, does that mean they're inevitably left with the teachers who all those independent public schools didn't want? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, there's no school that's left out. I mean, if a school says they want to be an independent public school, in Western Australia it might take a year or two to tool up that school if you like to be able to be an independent public school and the Commonwealth will support the State or Territory governments to bring this about. DAVID SPEERS: Sure, but there's only a certain pool of teachers in any State that can go to a school, and if the independent public schools are choosing all the best ones where does that leave the others? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, that's not the way it will work. I mean, this will lift all the schools in a community, and I have no reason not to expect that one day maybe all public schools will be independent public schools, with all the best teachers. I mean we want all of our teachers to be better teachers and we want our good teachers to move to a different level. We want our teachers who need extra help to get that extra help to be great teachers. We mustn't just give up and say, oh, it can't be done, so let's have mediocrity across our school systems. That's a bad approach. DAVID SPEERS: Would you like to go further down this path? Is this a first step, if you like? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, to me it's a first step. I mean, the Budget is very tight. I'm very glad that the Prime Minister and the Treasurer and I have been able to find $70 million for the independent public schools initiative. DAVID SPEERS: But what would you like to achieve ultimately? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I would like all schools to have that kind of autonomy. DAVID SPEERS: And would you like schools to be able to determine how much a teacher is paid based on their experience? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, that's a matter for the States and Territories because they employ the teachers. DAVID SPEERS: But that's not something you will pursue? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, we can't affect it because we don't employ any teachers. DAVID SPEERS: And you mentioned the States that have embraced this. New South Wales, I just saw the statement from the Education Minister, Adrian Piccoli, we think we have the balance right in New South Wales between local authority for schools and maintaining the benefits of collaboration. While we strongly support devolving authority to local schools, we have no plans to move further towards wholesale autonomy. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, we'll work with New South Wales to bring about whatever autonomy we can reach with the New South Wales Government. DAVID SPEERS: This is the biggest school system in the country. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: That's right, it's very important. DAVID SPEERS: Have you hit a dead-end there with them already? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, and we – I mean, Adrian has written to me embracing more autonomy for schools. They have autonomy being rolled out. We’d like to help that, extend it, make it more ubiquitous across the State. DAVID SPEERS: Education Minister Christopher Pyne, thank you. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Pleasure. Ends