Sky News PM Agenda

SUBJECT: School funding changes; PM says standards in schools a “distraction” E&OE................................ David Speers: The Prime Minister says you have been incredibly arrogant by accusing the New south Wales Premier of being conned do you seriously think Barry O’Farrell was conned? Hon Christopher Pyne MP: Well David, the numbers that I think Barry O’Farrell and New South Wales were presented with a month ago are different to the numbers that appeared in the Budget and the only numbers you can really rely on are the ones that are in the Budget and they show a $326 million cut to school education over the next four years and rely, her statements rely on a doctored up indexation figure of 3 per cent when indexation over the last 10 years on average has been around 6 per cent. So the other clanger that she dropped today, the most important one was that she said teacher standards and student standards were a distraction. Now every parent in Australia should be shaking their heads in amazement that the Prime Minister thinks that the outcomes for our students and the standards of our teachers are nothing more than a distraction, well now, actually the whole purpose of what government policy should be about. Speers: Well I’ll get to this issue of standards in a moment; let’s just deal with the issue of funding. Now, your claim that the Government will actually will spend $326 million less over the next four years is based on this indexation figure that would remain in place if these reforms didn’t go through now you’re saying it would be 5.6% but the Budget says that it’s now 3.9% because State Governments have cut their school funding and the indexation rate is linked to how much States spend on their own government schools. Pyne: Well, there’s two separate issues David, the first one is that the $326 million is based on the fact that the Government has redirected money from national partnerships and targeted programs to the new school funding model but in the process they’ve lost $326 million because they are only moving across $2.8 million dollars. Billion dollars, I should say. They’ve lost $326 million because they’re moving across $2.8 billion. The indexation argument is a separate argument because the Government is saying that indexation will be 3per cent for the next 6 years, every year. Speers: 3.9 per cent, 3.9 per cent. Pyne: On the $16 billion figure she was touting on the weekend and again today was based on 3 per cent if you read the Minister for Education’s press release, unless he’s got that figure wrong as well. I’m prepared to accept he might have got that figure wrong but whatever percentage they’re saying it is, it is a doctored up figure because over the last 10 years, the model has shown average increase every year of 6 per cent and there’s never been the same figure every year for each of those 10 years so they have somehow managed to come up with a number which is apparently going to stay exactly the same for 6 years when all evidence is to the contrary and in fact the Department of Education have answered questions in Senate Estimates on many occasions over the years which bears out the Opposition’s position, not bears out the Government’s position. Speers: Okay but just to be clear on this, we’re talking about the coming four years, is the timeframe we’re discussing, and you’re suggesting there’s a funding cut because you think… Pyne: That’s right. Speers: …that indexation growth will remain at around six per cent. The budget says it’s at 3.9 per cent. Do you accept though, that when states cut their funding, that indexation rate comes down? Pyne: When the states cut their funding the indexation rate comes down, but even in MYEFO last year, the figure that the Government relied on was 5.6 per cent. Somehow it’s miraculously become another number, but in fact in that time Victoria has settled a pay dispute with the teachers, so their spending will increase. Campbell Newman in Queensland has announced $710 million of new spending, so the number will increase, and New South Wales has announced $1.7 billion of new spending, so the number will increase. So whatever way you look at it, the numbers the Government’s relying on is wrong. Speers: How do you calculate that? How do you know it will increase? Pyne: Because, well it’s the corollary of what you made, David, which is that if the states are cutting their spending, the number goes down. If the states are increasing their spending – and I’ve just given you three examples of where they’re increasing their spending – The number will go up. So there is no credibility to the Government’s figures at all. It is just another hysterical scare campaign from a Prime Minister who is running out of scare campaigns. Speers: Okay. You’ve pointed to those examples. Is there any certainty that over the coming four years, that indexation rate will be, as you forecast, around six per cent? Pyne: Yes, absolutely, because the MYEFO last year said it would be at least 5.6 per cent, and since that time at least three State Governments have announced large increases in spending, so the number can only go up. We’re the only political party that can promise that no school will be worse off, because they’ll get their current quantum plus indexation, and in fact we’re now in the position where Coalition policy is more generous. Speers: At six per cent? Pyne: Well, at least at 5.6. It could be six per cent, but even the Government admitted 5.6 in October last year, so there’s no way that any school could be worse off under the Coalition. In fact, they could only be better off, because if the Government’s got $326 million of cuts over the next four years, and we’re apparently expected to believe in the fifth and sixth year there’ll be a massive balloon payment. I mean it’s like your employer, David, coming along to you and saying ‘in the next four years, I’m going to pay you less salary, but in the fifth and sixth years I’m going to really put your salary up. It’s going to skyrocket’. No Australian worth their salt would accept that deal from their boss, and the public shouldn’t accept that deal from a very bad Government, which can’t promise from year to year, let alone in five or six years time. Speers: Well let me ask you this – are you able to give a commitment, then, that if you do become education minister, you would keep the current system in place, and the indexation rate would remain at least 5.6 per cent over the coming four years? Pyne: The indexation rate, I can give you this guarantee. If the Coalition’s elected, we will keep the SES funding model for two years, we will keep the current indexation rate which over the last ten years has averaged 6 per cent, and therefore you can expect that over the next two to four years it will be around that figure, which means it could drop down a little bit below, it could drop up, go up a little bit, but schools couldn’t possibly be worse off under the coalition, but under the Government they will be worse off. A quarter of the schools will be worse off in real terms, and as well as that they’re cutting $326 million from all schools in the next four years, and we’re expected to believe they’ll make that up. Now, let’s not forget that David Gonski’s model suggested $6.5 billion of new spending each year. Even on the Prime Minister’s own admission, if she had a two for one deal with the states, that’d be about $4.2 billion over the next four years, in every year, by the way. That would be $14 billion of new spending, and yet she’s cutting $326 million. No wonder she’s running a scare campaign, because the truth is really scary. Speers: Now if what you’re saying is right, it will therefore cost you money off the Budget bottom line to keep with the current model and the indexation rate you’ve just articulated there. This is actually going to cost you money compared to what’s in last week’s Budget papers if there really is a $326 million difference here, is that what you’re saying that this is going to cost the Budget more? Pyne: There’s no doubt that if the Coalitions policy is implemented rather than the Governments, our policy is more generous to schools by at least by $326 million which is money we’ll have to find in our other savings measures or in the education budget elsewhere and we’ll have to give those figures a clear indication of where that money will be found before the next election, once the PEFO, the pre election forecasts are released but yes the Coalitions policy is more generous than the Governments policy. Speers: Alright. And just on the Prime Ministers comment today on school standards, let’s just play it, she was asked a question about your claim that despite increased funding we have seen outcomes fall in recent years, here she was. Quote from Julia Gillard Speers: There Chris Pyne, she says it’s a distraction because based on what they’ve seen on the ground you can get better outcomes by transparency and more money. Pyne: Well the Prime Minister has just described the outcomes for students as a distraction, as white noise. There are 3.6 million students in Australia and she has just said that their outcomes is a distraction. What she’s exposed is that she’s much more interested in big spending proposals in five or six years time than she is in the outcomes for students. Now I’m a father of four children, I can tell you the most important thing that I want for them in their education is the best outcomes they can achieve, the Prime Minister’s just said outcomes are a distraction that they are just white noise, that teacher quality and student outcomes don’t matter. Now she should be hanging her head in shame if she genuinely believes that government policy should be about spending rather that about getting the best outcomes possible for our students. Speers: Shadow Education Minister, Christopher Pyne we’ll have to leave it there. Thank you for joining us this afternoon. Pyne: Pleasure. ENDS.