RN Breakfast

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
Interview - ABC RN Breakfast with Fran Kelly
Tuesday 17 March 2015

SUBJECT: Higher education reforms.

FRAN KELLY: Well the Abbott Government is not giving up on its higher education reforms, but it would appear that its last ditch compromise on university funding has failed to sway enough independents to support the deregulation of universities. That's a bill due to be voted on in the Senate tomorrow. Here's a sample of the views from the crossbench.

[Excerpt]

NICK XENOPHON: This is a bridge too far for me to go down this path.

GLENN LAZARUS: I do not support the measures, I will continue to vote against the measures, whether they are in one bill or in many.

DAVID LEYONHELM: Yes I did say that I had serious reservations and if the vote was held today and nothing had changed I would be voting against it, so he does know my position.

[End of excerpt]

FRAN KELLY: That's three views from the crossbenchers Nick Xenophon, Glenn Lazarus, and David Leyonhjelm responding to that back down from the Federal Government yesterday. The Education Minister Christopher Pyne's in our Parliament House studios, Minister welcome back to Breakfast.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning Fran, and happy St Patrick's Day to you.

FRAN KELLY: I can't see if you've got a green tie on or not…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: [Laughs] no I've got a blue…

FRAN KELLY: …but you have got your shirt on; that's a relief.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I have the blue tie…

FRAN KELLY: The blue tie.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: …obviously. And yes I am wearing my shirt, which is a lovely blue and white check.

FRAN KELLY: Well that's good and it's a relief as I say.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Ha, indeed.

FRAN KELLY: Minister you've spoken with or left messages for all eight of the crossbenchers, we know that, you presumably know by now that they are still not going to vote for university deregulation.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well Fran it's looking that way and that's very disappointing, because I'm very committed to these higher education reforms, as is the Government; that's why I cleared away all hurdles yesterday by taking the 20 per cent Commonwealth Grant Scheme cut away from the bill and putting it as a separate measure by delinking the National Collaborative Research Infrastructure Scheme - $150 million – from the passage of these savings. I've obviously done all the things the crossbenchers asked for; I've reduced the 10-year Government bond rate on interest repayments back to the consumer price index, created a $100 million dollar structural adjustment fund. I couldn't have bent over further for the crossbenchers to make them support this bill. So if they don't vote for it when it comes up, which I think will be tomorrow morning, that will be very disappointing because it's the best reform for Australia and students and it's the only viable alternative to Labor's disastrous existential threat to universities. But I'll be back again because it's too important to give up.

FRAN KELLY: You've been working on this for a year; why did it take you until two days before the vote to jettison all that – to realise, and I quote you; “the bill will not pass the Senate in its current form”? The writing's been on the wall for a long time on this. Why didn't you move on this earlier?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, Fran, as you would know negotiations are things that happen, particularly often at the last moment, and I have been negotiating with the crossbenchers for 12 months as you put it. There've been I think four separate inquiries in the Senate into these bills in spite of the fact that they haven't changed dramatically since the budget last year. Labor and the Greens have run a resistance campaign against these bills ever since the budget out of political opportunism on the part of the Labor Party and misguided ideology on the part of the Greens, and I've done everything I can. But often you leave the last of the negotiations to the very last minute; that's the nature of them, that's what I've done. But I've cleared away all hurdles and this is now the deregulation, with benefits to the students, expanding the demand driven system to the Pathways programmes, which is really important for low-SES and first-generation university goers, expanding the Commonwealth Grant Scheme to the non-university higher education providers, getting rid of the premiums on VET FEE-HELP, and FEE-HELP. Those three measures alone will help 210,000 Australians get higher education in Australia who might not otherwise receive it. Now Labor's voting against them, so are the Greens, but I still call on the crossbenchers to recognise the tremendous benefits for students and universities in these reforms.

FRAN KELLY: Will you risk this – will you take it to the Senate tomorrow if it won't get through and risk it being voted down again?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yes.

FRAN KELLY: Why rush this into the Senate tomorrow? Why risk it going down again? If it is so important as you say, and plenty of people agree with you, and plenty, including a couple of former Labor education ministers, say there is value in this. Why not take a complete step back now to maximise your chance of getting this through with the support of the Senate? Why not have that inquiry that Nick Xenophon has been calling for into university deregulation alone, because that is the centrepiece of this?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well Fran the idea this has been rushed is a completely embarrassing suggestion, and I've been talking about this since… hang on…

FRAN KELLY: [Interrupts] no but now you've separated the bills and you've got deregulation is where you want to focus – why bother putting that in tomorrow if it's not going to get there? Why don't you now take deregulation, put it at the centrepiece of your policy pronouncements, and bring the country and the crossbenchers along with you if you can?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Fran there've been 43 inquiries into higher education since 1957. Another inquiry by Nick Xenophon is simply another method by which they don't have to vote on an important reform. We've been talking about this since last February.

FRAN KELLY: [Interrupts] Yeah, but you've crowded it with all these other elements.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Let me finish Fran, you've asked the question. There've been four Senate inquiries; there's been the Kemp-Norton Inquiry into the demand-driven system since the election that I've initiated. There've been more inquiries than you can poke a stick at. There've been days and days and days of debate in the House of Representatives. There's been days and days of debates in the Senate. The Senate needs to, at some point, be put to proof and have a vote. At some stage you have to say aye or nay. Now I'm going to do that either today or tomorrow, and allow the Senators to make their choice. If they vote no, we will be back again.

FRAN KELLY: If they vote no you'll be back again before the election or you'll take this to the election as a centrepiece of your election policies?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: This reform is far to important, Fran, to wait another 18 months to 20 months. The Labor Party when they introduced the Higher Education Contribution Scheme did not take it to an election in 1987/88. The Coalition voted it through in the Senate, not because we supported it but because it was the Government's policy and it was the budget measure – a budget measure. Now unfortunately today the Labor Party is led by a political opportunist in Bill Shorten, he's a populist, he has no policies of his own and he doesn't know how to pay for all the wild spending suggestions that he's making and that will become apparent at the next election. But I'm cracking on with reform because it's vitally important to Australia and I can't back away from it because I know if I do it will be bad for students, bad for international education exports and bad for our universities and eventually I have to convince the crossbenchers of that. But I think most Australians would agree that, one, that hasn't been easy and, two, I've done my level best at trying to get these reforms through.

FRAN KELLY: Do you accept you haven't convinced the crossbenchers because you framed it so badly, because you did crowd all these other elements into this bill? It was clear this week, if not last week, that tying it to the $150 million in research funding really, really aggravated the crossbenchers. They didn't like the sense that they were being held hostage on this – over the science research, and putting in things like an increase in the HECS repayment – those elements really sunk this bill from the start – that you miscalculated?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No. Look I don't accept that, Fran. I think that there are some crossbenchers who are determined to vote against this bill regardless of what's in it and trying to convince them is wellnigh impossible.

FRAN KELLY: Who are those?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I'm not going to talk about individual crossbenchers. I'm working with them all. But I think most people in Australia would feel that the Government could not have done more – could not have done more – to try and get these reforms through. If they go down I think a lot of people in Australia will not blame the Government for trying, I think they will say the Senate is proving to make it very hard for the Government to get on with the job that it was elected to do which is to improve Australia, make people's lives better and easier, which is what I'm trying to do.

FRAN KELLY: It's 16 to eight on Breakfast. Our guest is the Education Minister Christopher Pyne. Christopher Pyne, the measure you put before the budget is no longer a budget saving measure even though that's how it was, you know, in part – well that would have been the upshot of it for the budget in its original form. It looks like it will end up costing the budget on a number of fronts but including hiving off that 20 per cent Government saving to another day, higher uni fees – high university deregulation – higher ed, sorry – deregulation will mean a higher HECS liability and presumably higher unpaid HECS debts along with that. Have you calculated a figure on that?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well Fran, Australia is one of the world leaders in collecting its Higher Education Contribution Scheme debt…

FRAN KELLY: But we've still got an unpaid debt of $13 billion haven't we over two years, isn't that the calculation?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Fran, we collect 82 per cent of the debt. In Great Britain they collect 52 per cent of it. So in fact we are very good at collecting our debt. Those who understand how the system works would realise that people who don't earn over $50,000 a year don't actually repay their HECS debt, so people on low incomes aren't being asked to pay their Higher Education Contribution Scheme until they reach a threshold of about $53,000 at the moment, which we want to reduce to $50,000. So there's an inbuilt, if you like, threshold which means it would never be able to collect all the debt. Now it is actually an asset, but more importantly it is a contribution to Australia. There are two benefits in higher education: there's the private benefit and people who go to university will earn 75 per cent more over their lifetime than people who don't and the public benefit of a more productive workforce, more participation in the workforce, higher skills for Australia. So we are prepared to carry an 18 per cent non-repayment simply because we know that there is a benefit to the whole economy.

FRAN KELLY: Just finally we're going to be hearing from Nobel Laureate Brian Schmidt in a moment. He was the one who came out on this program and really said that the Government's threat of cutting the scientific research funding was childish, immature and urged on you to rethink which you have done now, you've backed down on that threatened cut to scientific research but you've only guaranteed the $150 million for another 12 months. Do you accept and do you believe that funding generally for our scientific research has to be on a more secure footing?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well Fran it was me that refunded the National Collaborative Research Infrastructure Scheme. It was Labor that defunded it. So let's get the facts right here. Labor defunded it, I am so passionate about it as is Brian Schmidt and I absolutely agree with him that it's vital. I'm so passionate about it that I put it into this bill to make sure that it can continue. Now we spend $9 billion a year on research - $150 million out of $9 billion is not breaking the back of research, so let's keep it in perspective. I wanted to save it, absolutely. I've ordered a review into research infrastructure, which is going on right now and that's why we refunded it for another 12 months while that review is continuing and we spent an additional $9 billion on research from the Government in Australia to make sure our scientists and researchers have the best possible chance to be world leaders. So, let's not start to be negative about what we're doing in research, we're in fact doing a fantastic job. It wasn't me that threatened the National Collaborative Research Infrastructure Scheme, it was Labor, the Greens and the crossbenchers voting against the reform that threatened it. I've now fixed that problem by removing it, but it wasn't me that ever threatened it. It was me in fact that put the money in to save it.

FRAN KELLY: Christopher Pyne, thank you very much for joining us on Breakfast.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It's a pleasure.

FRAN KELLY: Christopher Pyne is the Federal Education Minister.

[ends]