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SUBJECT/S: School Funding FRAN KELLY: Let's go straight to the issue of school funding, because the states are at loggerheads today with the Abbott Government over the future of the Better Schools plan, formerly known as Gonski. The Federal Education Minister, Christopher Pyne, has given an assurance the Coalition will honour its election commitment to hand over billions of dollars in extra school funding. But he says Labor has left behind, quote, a colossal funding mess and it's back to the drawing board as the Government reworks the implementation model. And that has worried some of the states. Fellow Coalition Government in New South Wales, for one, is warning any attempt to change the funding model could see schools lose much needed cash. The minister joins us now. Christopher Pyne, welcome again to RN Breakfast. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning, Fran. FRAN KELLY: Now, Minister, you say the funding model Labor came up with is, quote, a shambles and quite unimplementable. You want to overhaul this model. Just to be clear, will that mean less money for schools, either now or in the future? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, we've promised that we'll keep the same funding envelope that Labor promised before the election. And let's be very clear, there's absolutely no reason why any state, territory, the Catholics or independent schools should expect or assume to get less money. The funding envelope remains exactly the same. The issue is, how is it implemented? Now, Bill Shorten has left us a shambles. He was the last Education Minister and I have to sort out the Shorten shambles. It would be quite irresponsible of me to implement a new school funding model that I knew was incapable of being implemented and would therefore be getting off on the wrong foot. It would be inefficient. It would be ineffective. It's quite incomprehensible. So, having found that out since we got elected, that the part that was trying to make a square peg fit in a round hole, I've determined that it is better to keep the same funding envelope, but implement a simple, flat, fair and equitable system. FRAN KELLY: Now, I want to come to the model that you think you will implement in the short term, but just to stay with the funding for a moment, this commitment to the same funding envelope Labor promised before the election, it's all about timeframe, isn't it? Because some of the states have agreed to a six-year funding model and in the first four years that adds up nationally to $2.8 billion. But beyond it goes closer to $12 billion. Are you committed to that kind of escalation in schools funding over the six-year period? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, we definitely are not and everyone knows that. Before the election we made it very, very clear in every interview, every column, every discussion, every speech I've ever given that we were committed to a four-year funding agreement. Every state and territory knows that. The Catholics and the independents know that. So there's no year five or year six in the Coalition's funding agreement and that is not a shock to anybody. FRAN KELLY: But that's what would make it unworkable, isn't it, because the Gonski needs-based formula ultimately needs a lot more money in the system for it to work, to make sure no school loses out. And that is loaded into, it grows as schools get on board with it, into those fifth and sixth years and beyond. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: But Fran, we will keep our election promise. Our election promise was that we would maintain the same funding envelope as Labor over the forward estimates. That's the promise we made. We were elected on that promise and that's the promise that I will keep. FRAN KELLY: So you're promising to keep the four-year funding, but not the model. Now, some in - some of your Coalition colleagues are not happy about - the New South Wales Education Minister, for instance, Adrian Piccoli, says, the Gonski formula has already been applied to New South Wales' 2,200 schools. And, quote, any attempt to change the model may now see both government and non-government schools lose funding. Is he wrong about that? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I'm not going to get into a slanging match with any of my state education minister colleagues or territory colleagues. That… FRAN KELLY: Well, I was really wondering whether you could reassure them. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: …would be unseemly. Well, to be honest, the facts are that the New South Wales Government hasn't implemented the pure Gonski model. They've implemented their own hybrid approach to that and that is why in implementing it a number of schools lost money in New South Wales following the promise that Julia Gillard made and Kevin Rudd made that no school would be worse off under this model. In fact, dozens of schools in New South Wales lost money. So it's not actually true that the Gonski model is being implemented anywhere other than the 900 independent schools across Australia. There are 9,600 schools. Less than 10 per cent will see the so-called Gonski model implemented. That is not exactly a national model. Every state, every territory, will implement something different. FRAN KELLY: So this… CHRISTOPHER PYNE: There wasn't even an agreement signed with the Catholics in spite of Bill Shorten trumpeting a great breakthrough. There was no agreement signed. And Victoria and Tasmania have no [inaudible] arrangements with the Commonwealth, so out of the 10 potential jurisdictions that could have signed up, only four ever did. FRAN KELLY: Well, I don't want to get distracted into that, because I'd rather talk about the model and the model... CHRISTOPHER PYNE: That is the model. FRAN KELLY: No, no, no. No, I'm talking about the model essentially that you've inherited is a needs-based model. That's what Gonski is - a base amount of money allocated to schools, topped up with additional loadings for disadvantaged students. That is the model and you're describing that as a shambles and a colossal funding mess, so is that the model that you're rejecting as well, as you try and come up with something different, back to the drawing board? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Fran, the principle of a needs-based funding system where disadvantaged students get more money is a very good principle and that of course was the same principle of the previous socio-economic status funding model. It was called socio-economic status because funds got to where it was most needed. FRAN KELLY: Well except they didn't, I mean that's what the Gonski model did. That review panel met for a year or more and worked out and came out with a report that showed great disadvantage in some sectors, great disparity between the funding going to some of the schools that needed it most. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, no it didn't really. That's just not factually true. In fact, more money went to public schools than to Catholic schools, so that's not actually factually right. FRAN KELLY: What do you think the Gonski model found - the Gonski panel found? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: The Gonski model suggested that the previous government SES funding model should be the base of a new funding model and we agree with that. So, all the sides agreed that the principle of the funds should get to where it's most needed applies. The question is in trying to get there the Shorten shambles is so incomprehensible, so over-regulated, so prescriptive, so much command and control from Canberra. They're so much trying to bend themselves out of shape to make this system work that they've come up with a model that's essentially incapable of being implemented. It would be very costly to implement, so precious funds should be going to schools. It's going to be spent on regulation and prescription rather than at the schoolyard level. Now, I just don't think that would be common sense to implement a model that I know is wrong. FRAN KELLY: So Minister, I'm conscious you've got to jump on a plane and thank you for your time, but... CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Look I'm sorry for the background noise. FRAN KELLY: No, no, no, that's okay. But just the school year - the new school year starts - 2014 starts in February so what - that's just... CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yes. FRAN KELLY: So what, that's just over two months away. What are you going to put in its place in the meantime then if you're not happy with the model that New South Wales and Victoria and some of the other school sectors were about to implement, what are you going to put in its place? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, we'll make some announcements about these matters over the coming days and weeks but obviously for 2014 we will have to stick with what we've got but going forward beyond 2014 I want to put in place a flatter, simpler, fairer structure that doesn't spend precious dollars on administration and puts every single dollar that we have available into schools and into school students. The only important outcome here is to get better results for our students. That also is coupled of course with teacher quality, a robust curriculum, a principle autonomy and parental engagement. Because not everything in schools is about money, by the way. FRAN KELLY: No, of course. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Money is important but there's a lot more just as important things. FRAN KELLY: So sticking with what we've got for 2014, New South Wales can go ahead with the need-based model it was about to implement? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, as I just said, there's no reason why any state or territory should assume that they are going to get less money over the entire [unclear 0:08:36.7] estimates. The 2014 model is in place but I'm not going to continue to implement a model that I know is a poor model. FRAN KELLY: Kathryn Greiner was a member of the Gonski review panel. She's urging you not to walk away from their recommendations. She's asking if you'd sit down with the panel for a day so they can convince you of the system's benefits. Would you do that? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No. I've studied the Gonski model closely and I have to get on with the job of being the Education Minister. I think we've had a lot of talk, a lot of conferences, a lot of reports, a lot of analysis of those reports, we've had an election campaign, we've had election policies on both sides. It's time for the Government to be allowed to get on with the job and that's exactly what I intend to do. FRAN KELLY: You're not going to honour commitments even though New South Wales says they have a binding agreement. Tasmania says they have a binding heads of agreement. The Catholics even say there is no - this is a quote - there is no uncertainty about agreement being reached under the Australian Education Act for funding. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, we haven't - our election policy was that we would support a four year agreement. New South Wales and other states believe they have a six year agreement. We never signed up to that and we won't be honouring a six year agreement. FRAN KELLY: Christopher Pyne, thank you very much for joining us on Breakfast. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Thank you. FRAN KELLY: Christopher Pyne is the Federal Education Minister and the Government - Leader of the Government in House. It's quarter to seven on Breakfast. Ends