ABC Ballarat with Steve Martin

E&OE TRANSCRIPT ABC Ballarat with Steve Martin Date 12/06/14 SUBJECT: Higher Education reforms. STEVE MARTIN: We'll come back to that story with Dan Nicholson, from Victorian Legal Aid. I was going to play you a bit of what was in our news this morning, because the Federal Minister for Education, Christopher Pyne, has called in. Now, this is a follow on to our story yesterday. We're talking about the story on the front page of the Weekly Times newspaper where they were comparing the cost, or the future cost of university in Australia, and particularly agricultural courses, with the cost of a similar degree provided by an overseas university. And if you missed that, the numbers are as follows. Now, according to this newspaper report that says they're using University of Melbourne estimates, an agriculture degree will cost $97,000 to $112,000 for a three-year degree while staying on campus - this is after proposed Federal Budget increases. They compare that with Lincoln University, which the paper describes as highly regarded, same university degree, pretty much, would cost $60,000 also staying on campus. University of Alberta in Canada, the cost would be 82,000. So again, cheaper than these predicted costs by Melbourne University, and again, it's on campus. The University of Kentucky, same course for less than 100,000. So cheaper in New Zealand, Canada, and the US. One person we were talking to yesterday, Colin Long, said look, you don't necessarily have to travel overseas these days to do an overseas university course. Doesn't necessarily mean the brain drain of young talent heading overseas to study, you could just do it all online. In response this morning, the Minister for Education Christopher Pyne is with us. Minister, good morning to you. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning, Steve. STEVE MARTIN: Thank you for your time this morning. First up, your reaction to that article yesterday and some of the discussion about university fees being cheaper overseas than in Australia under changes in your budget. What is your reasons? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, my reaction would be that if Melbourne University priced themselves out of the market, then they won't have any students. And, of course, they won't do that and, therefore, they won't price themselves out of the market. Now, for example, maybe Federation University or Adelaide University, which runs a very good agricultural degree or other universities in Melbourne, if they see Melbourne University raising fees exponentially, they will start courses that are as good and they will attract students. That's how competition works, and that's why these reforms that I'm introducing are so well balanced, because they have competition, but every student can also borrow every single dollar up front. So say, for example, Melbourne University had an exorbitant fee for its agricultural degree, the student doing it could borrow every single dollar. If, on the other hand, the student decides to go to Alberta in Canada, well, there would be all sorts of costs associated with doing that, which would dissuade them from doing so, but all of this, of course, is wild speculation because the universities will set the fees, not the government. There aren't budget cuts which require the universities to increase their fees. I am deregulating universities because I think universities should be able to attach a value to the services that they are offering, and students should have a choice about whether they do a degree at one particular university or another. STEVE MARTIN: Yet, Minister, at this stage I'm yet to hear a senior university figure suggest that fees will go down. Glyn Davis, if we stick with Melbourne Uni for a moment, has been reported as saying a 45 per cent rise to make up for social science courses to cover the cost, 54 per cent in science, 61 per cent in engineering. All universities seem to be talking about the cost going up, not coming down due to competition as you're arguing. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, Melbourne University is the number one university in Australia. There are 38 other universities, and they will compete with Melbourne and Sydney and Adelaide and [indistinct] and in Queensland on price as well as on quality of service. So you can't simply take the gold standard, like comparing Louis Vuitton to every other type of product in the market for leather and say, well, that's the standard for everyone. Melbourne University is the number one university. They're more likely able to charge higher fees than anybody else because they're providing the highest quality service because they're the number one university on all the rankings in Australia. So, therefore, it's a very poor comparison. But I would say that Glyn Davis is merely speculating. The universities will make their decisions by 1 January 2016 and we'll give them all the freedom and all the support needed to make those decisions, and if Melbourne University over-charges, Monash University is just down the road, Deakin is around the corner, La Trobe is available, Federation University, Victoria University, Swinburne, RMIT, and I'm opening to the non-university higher education providers the capacity to access the Commonwealth Grants Scheme so there's an adrenaline shot of competition into the market which will mean that prices will not rise as high as people are currently speculating. STEVE MARTIN: Do you actively believe that prices will go down because of competition or they will not rise as much as is being predicted? I just want to be clear on this Minister. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I think prices will drop in certain courses and disciplines, definitely. I’m absolutely certain of it, because particularly regional and rural universities will compete with some of the city universities on price. They also have the advantage of, in many instances, having a lower cost of living for younger people to live and still be able to go to the pub or play sport or do whatever they want to do at lower prices. So they’ll be able to compete on cost of living, on price, on closeness to where they live and the Commonwealth Scholarships Fund that we are establishing, the biggest Commonwealth Scholarships Fund in Australia’s history, will mean rural and regional universities will be able to say to their students in their area, if you come to our university we’ll help you with your living costs, with your rental costs, with your tuition fees under our scholarship system, which will mean that they can actually compete very successfully with Melbourne University. STEVE MARTIN: Are you confident that that scholarship scheme will be enough of an incentive for rural students to undertake tertiary study? Because for a number of years, regardless of the colour of government in Canberra, on this programme we’ve spoken about the disincentive for young regional people to head to university if they have to relocate from their town, whether it be from Warrnambool to Ballarat or Gippsland from one town to another to get to a campus, or whether it be going to a city. The costs for regional students are prohibitive with accommodation and education. You’re confident the scholarship is going to address that adequately? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I think, along with the current arrangements around the youth allowance, which we’re always reviewing, we want to give more support to rural and regional Australians to go to university and I would say that my reforms will be a real shot in the arm to rural and regional university. Many have reacted extremely positively to these reforms because they haven’t been able to compete on price. See, for example, if you do a law degree at Federation University in Ballarat, it’ll cost the student exactly the same as if they do a law degree at Melbourne University in the centre of Melbourne. Now, nobody would argue that Federation University’s law school and Melbourne University law school will produce the same outcome for students in terms of their job capacity, because Melbourne University law school’s one of the best in the world and Federation University is one of many law schools in Australia that are good university law schools, but not obviously as good as Melbourne or say Sydney. So that means that the rural and regional student has been subsidising well off city students to go to Melbourne University because they’re basically being charged exactly the same price. Now that is what is unfair about the current system. STEVE MARTIN: Christopher Pyne, if the doomsayers in all of this, if their predictions come to fruition to a large degree, how much time will you allow that to play out before you try and tweak the system to get the sorts of results that you’re arguing you want to see happen? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well Steve, I’m extremely enthusiastic about these reforms. I think that they will lead to a flowering of the higher education system in Australia. I don’t believe the people who are effectively out of self-interest in many cases, particularly at the higher education level, are trying to spread doom and gloom and the students are protesting, but they always protest against Liberal governments and I don’t begrudge them doing so, but the reality is that when people see these reforms in operation on the ground I think people will be absolutely pleased that they stayed the course and didn’t get thrown off course by those who always seek to knock rather than to build up. STEVE MARTIN: But how long will you allow it to go for if your predictions – and I take it that you’re intent on what you’re trying to achieve, quite genuine and that’s what you want to see happen. If it doesn’t happen and it happens the way those against the reforms are saying, how long before you start trying to tweak the system to get back to what you are attempting to achieve now? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I’ve established two working groups. One around financing, one around legislation and regulation, headed by Peter Shergold and John Dewar from La Trobe University and they are continually advising me on the technical aspects of some of these reforms. They’re due to start on 1 January 2016. I hope to be Education Minister for many years if the public keep having the confidence to put the Coalition Government back into power, but I will always be reviewing how these reforms are going. If they are not achieving what I expect, I am not a bloody-minded person who would refuse to change with circumstances as they change. I really genuinely want more young people to be given the opportunity to have a higher education that I had and I will tweak whatever needs to be tweaked over the coming years to make sure these reforms are working. STEVE MARTIN: Minister thank you for your time. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It’s a pleasure, thank you. STEVE MARTIN: Minister for Education Christopher Pyne. [ends]