ABC 936

SUBJECT: SCHOOL FUNDING LEON COMPTON: Yes good to be with you this morning. Christopher Pyne, the Federal Education Minister, to join us in a moment. You would have been aware there were long negotiations over whether or not Tasmania was going to join or sign up to the Gonski Education Reforms. They were reforms that would see differences in the way that students attracted funding that they would carry through their years in primary and secondary education. It took a long time for Tasmania to sign up but the Premier had reservations from memory at the time about whether or not too much money would be going to private or independent schools in the state. She wanted more to go to remote areas—areas of disadvantage, more to go to the public sector or perhaps less state money anyway to go to Independent and Catholic schools. But eventually they signed or they sort of signed heads of agreement—the memorandum of understanding as you heard Nick McKim say earlier in the week. It would seem now that after a couple of months in office and after promising through the election campaign that they were in lock step on the issue of Gonski, the Federal Education Minister Christopher Pyne is to walk away from the deal and renegotiate something new after the first year of funding completed in 2014. Have a listen—this is the Premier talking with us a bit earlier this morning. [Excerpt from interview] LARA GIDDINGS: Absolutely. I'm most concerned about all of those major reforms that the Gillard and Rudd Government—the Labor Governments brought through. NBN which we all know about NBN, Gonski which we've spoken about, NDIF that was spoken about as well. So they're all of concern to me and GST Leon, that's the fourth pillar that I am most concerned about. [End of excerpt] LEON COMPTON: That was Tasmania's Premier earlier this morning. The question was if she thought other programs like the National Disability Insurance Scheme might be threatened in the same way that Gonski has been over the last couple of days. Christopher Pyne is the Federal Education Minister. He joins us this morning. Minister good morning to you. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning. LEON COMPTON: Thank you for talking with us. Tasmania felt like it had a deal on the issue of Gonski and around the way that education would be funded in this state over the next four years. Why not stick with that deal? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well Tasmanians shouldn't assume that they'll get any less money under the Coalition than under the Labor Party because we have exactly the same funding envelope as Labor did. What's happened is that Bill Shortened ripped out $1.2 billion from Western Australia, Queensland and the Northern Territory—states that hadn't signed up to the new school funding model. We've put $230 million of that back in today for those three jurisdictions. So we're actually spending more money on school education than Labor would have if they'd been elected. In Tasmania the $1.6 billion, the funding envelope remains our policy as it was Labor's policy which means Tasmanians shouldn't expect to get any less money over the forward estimates. The model itself is quite incomprehensible. It doesn't apply to most of the country. It only applies to 900 Independent schools because every state and territory has their own model and it is a dog's breakfast. I have to fix it up as the Education Minister. LEON COMPTON: You say it's incomprehensible. It was comprehensible to our Education Minister and our Premier. It was comprehensible to your predecessor as Education Minister. Why not just stick with it? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well it wasn't really, and that's why Labor could never really explain how it affected individual schools. When people see the guidelines on Friday I think people will be shocked at how complicated it is—very prescriptive, heavily regulated, costs a great deal to implement. And we've said before the election that we would keep the same funding envelope as Labor which we are doing and that we would reduce the command and control features from Canberra. So that Canberra wouldn't try and second guess state and territory governments in the running of their schools given that we don't own or operate any. And Lara Giddings welcomed that during the election because she said she didn't want the Federal Government in Canberra telling her how to run Tasmanian schools and I agree with her about that. LEON COMPTON: You talk about Labor premiers on this—of course your own counterpart but in New South Wales Barry O'Farrell liked the deal enough to sign up with it and he's now angry too. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well states like New South Wales believed that they would get years five and six of the agreement but we made it very, very clear that the forward estimates are a four-year period and that the agreement is a four-year period. But I would expect all the states and territories to fight for their corner. They've been doing it for 113 years and nothing will be different. But I'm the Minister for Education for all of Australia and that means that students in Queensland, Western Australia and the Northern Territory shouldn't be treated as second class citizens and that's the way Bill Shorten would have treated them if they had been re-elected because he ripped $1.2 billion away from them. But Tasmanians like South Australians shouldn't assume that they'll get any less money across the forward estimates and I think any other suggestions are quite irrational. LEON COMPTON: Is this ideological or economic? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It's simply the practicalities of the Labor Party's funding envelope that they left us which is $1.6 billion. But as I've said we've found $230 million more than Labor would have spent on schools for Queensland, Northern Territory and Western Australia because they were left out. I might say that Lara Giddings' claim that they had an agreement with the Commonwealth, it's a technical point but of course it isn't true, because Labor in Tasmania never signed an agreement with the Federal Government. They didn’t sign a bilateral agreement. The only states that did were South Australia, New South Wales and the ACT. LEON COMPTON: But signing funding agreements between state and federal governments are difficult and complex. It takes a long period of time. We're going back there again it would seem and even I think the Principal of King’s College in New South Wales has been quoted in saying there's little will in the education system to go back there again. Do you actually have a plan for what comes next after 2014 or will it be about going back to negotiating with all of the states and territories over funding? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We will develop a very simple funding model that is transparent, that doesn't try and rule states and territories from Canberra, that is fair to all students and equitable between all states, territories, the Catholic and Independent sectors that won't be prescriptive. We don't have to go back to the negotiating table as you call it for interminable meetings. We know exactly what we need to do—we need a flatter, simpler, easier to understand and implement a model and the Commonwealth will put that on the table earlier this year and the states of course they will—I'm sure they will welcome funding from the Commonwealth and I think it will all be resolved much more easily than people are making out. LEON COMPTON: But the suggestion is and it would seem you agree you don't actually have a plan for what comes next year... CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yes I definitely have a plan. LEON COMPTON: ...that that is still to be developed. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No I definitely have a plan but I'm not going to go through the intricate details of how federal government works or state governments work until I can put it on the table and have everybody look at it fairly and reasonably. LEON COMPTON: Again back to the issue of ideology I mean did Joe Hockey say we just can't give you the money for this Mr Pyne or is this an ideological issue? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: There's nothing ideological about wanting the best outcomes for our students. Sometimes in this education debate people can't see the wood for the trees. They think it's all about money—it's all about funding. It isn't. It's about quality teaching, it's about a robust curriculum, it's about more local decision making and it's about parental engagement. But unfortunately some people in the sector think it's just about dollars. It isn't. It's about a lot of other things as well. LEON COMPTON: Given the amount of times that the Federal Government while in Opposition and through the election campaign pledged that they were in lock step with the then Gillard Government over education funding and over Gonski, can you understand that people feel lied to about your new policy position on this issue? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No I can't because we are exactly keeping our pre-election promise which is that we would have the same funding envelope as Labor and we would dismantle the command and control features in the model from Canberra and that's exactly what we are doing. LEON COMPTON: But what people might have been voting on is the idea of amounts of money following students and being increased depending or decreased depending on levels of need or ability or migrant status or so on. That's at the core of Gonski. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: And there's no reason why they should assume that will change. LEON COMPTON: There are those that are saying that this is your carbon tax moment as Julia Gillard was pilloried for lying about the carbon tax or changing her position on it once elected. This is your moment as a government. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well that's defamatory and untrue. LEON COMPTON: Is anything else at jeopardy that we don't know about yet in Tasmania and around Australia? What about the National Disability Insurance Scheme? Is there any suggestion that the Government having previously committed to the NDIS while in Opposition might change its position on that too? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No. LEON COMPTON: How are you dealing with the criticism that as Education Minister from Barry O'Farrell yesterday that you're operating as if from Opposition? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I've been in parliament for 21 years and I've been criticised by experts usually on a daily basis [laughs] and I'm not fussed about criticism, I'm fussed about good outcomes for our students and improving the Australia that I believe in and I intend to continue to do just that. LEON COMPTON: So talk with us about the process of replacing Gonski. It goes for 2014, schools know what they get. Talk about the process of working out how the funding mix between the Federal Government and the states works in 2015 and beyond? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I have to explain to you there isn't really a Gonski funding model and to keep pretending that there is is quite misleading. Every state and territory has their own model. There is no national funding model. Bill Shorten left us with a complete shambles. Apart from ripping out $1.2 billion in spending in the pre-election fiscal outlook he also had a model where every state and territory applied their own rules. The so called national model only applies to 900 Independent schools around Australia. That's what a shemozzle it is. The guidelines are incomprehensible and he didn't even sign agreements with Tasmania, Victoria or the Catholic sector. So there are only four jurisdictions around Australia out of a possible 10 to ever sign any agreement with the Commonwealth Government. So there is no national Gonski model. That is an entire misleading suggestion. LEON COMPTON: Christopher Pyne you get to meet Tasmania's Education Minister Nick McKim for the first time coming up I think in a day or two from now. He's described the changes that you've proposed as outrageous and I think you'll hear that from other states as well. What's your plan for the meeting with education ministers on Friday? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I am very much looking forward to seeing all my education ministerial colleagues. I always think it's best to be upfront with people about the situation. It certainly doesn't please me that Bill Shorten ripped $1.2 billion out of the school funding envelope. But I want to ensure that Nick McKim and Lara Giddings and Will Hodgman and Michael Ferguson, if they are in government next year in Tasmania, and I fervently hope they are, they can all run their own state schools in a way that they think is best for Tasmanians rather than being interfered with from Canberra and they need the funds to do that and I'm happy to help them to do that. LEON COMPTON: Good to talk to you this morning. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Thank you. LEON COMPTON: Christopher Pyne, Federal Education Minister on Mornings. Ends