ABC 891

E&OE TRANSCRIPT Interview – ABC 891 with Matthew Abraham, David Bevan and Mark Butler Wednesday 19 November 2014 SUBJECTS: ABC cuts to South Australian production, change.org petition. COMPERE: Welcome to the programme Mark Butler, on the phone. MARK BUTLER: Good morning. COMPERE: and in the studio, Chris Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt. He’s Leader of the House in the Federal Parliament and Education Minister. Welcome to the programme. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning. COMPERE: In Pyne-esc fashion, not python-esc, but in Pyne-esc fashion, you’re launching a petition to save production jobs in Adelaide from your own Government, Chris Pyne? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well it’s not from our government, that’s the thing. It’s the ABC management in Sydney. The petition is deliberately designed to go to the chairman of the board, Jim Spigelman on change.org. The link is on my Twitter feed, my ever-popular Twitter feed and my Facebook feed, which actually I am more popular on Facebook, I must say than Twitter which might say something about the kinds of people who are on both. Obviously the ABC needs to make its contribution to reducing the debt and the deficit that Labor has left us. And Malcolm Turnbull’s done the job for them. He got Peter Lewis to do a report, The Lewis Report, into how to reduce spending at the ABC, which showed that the spending could me reduced without any impact on production, without any impact on programming. So if ABC management in ultimo decide to cut jobs and production in Adelaide, it is a deliberate act of political vandalism, because they know, they have the report in front of them, in black and white, showing how to reduce costs without affecting production and programming and that’s what all out listeners need to know. There is no need for there to be a production change here in Adelaide unless in ultimo in Sydney, they refuse to actually implement the report Malcolm Turnbull had done for them. COMPERE: So you think this 5% fat that can be easily found in the ABC, and cut without affecting real jobs and real production? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: That’s what Peter Lewis’ report found. COMPERE: What would you cut? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I haven’t read Peter Lewis’ report obviously; I’m not the Communications Minister, that’s a matter between Malcolm Turnbull and Mark Scott… COMPERE: Well then how did you know what it found? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well obviously I speak to Malcolm a lot. And Malcolm has told me, as clear as a bell as I assume he will tell today in a speech in Adelaide, that the reductions in spending at the ABC can all happen without any impact at all on production and programming and they can all be in the back office area for example, in administration, in costs incurred particularly at Ultimo. I think mark Scott and the board need to get out of Ultimo and go around Australia and find the place where the ABC is most popular is in regional Australia – where it’s the lifeline of country towns and regional areas. It isn’t in the programmes that they put so much effort into in Ultimo in Sydney. It’s people like the ones here in Adelaide and Broken Hill and elsewhere around country Australia that rely on the ABC. So they should get out of Ultimo and start visiting a bit of country Australia. COMPERE: Or, you could stop lying to people for an election. That could be one option that people put up and that is, you said there would be no cuts. No one forced him to say that by the way. He volunteered there’d be no cuts. I think 24 hours before the election. Did he not? There will be no cuts to the ABC; there’ll be no cuts to the SBS. Now that is, is it not a lie? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: In the six years that Labor was in power, the ABC never faced any efficiency dividend. It was the only authority, agency or commission in the Government with no efficiency dividend applied to it. Now some might wonder why Labor never applied an efficiency dividend to the ABC… COMPERE: So why would Tony Abbott make that promise? Why would he make that promise? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well at that time, I don’t think he was necessarily as aware as we are now about the dire situation he was faced COMPERE: What, he wasn’t in control of his faculty? Are you saying he was exhausted from the election campaign; he’d gone a bit low-co? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, I didn’t say that. COMPERE: Well why would you make a…. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I didn’t say that Matthew and you know I didn’t say that. That’s just typical fabulous Bevan and Abraham trying to put words in my mouth, as much as I love you, I didn’t say that. COMPERE: Well transport us back there, why would you make that promise a day before the election. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We made a promise that we’d fix the budget. The ABC has had six years…. COMPERE: But you promised you wouldn’t cut the ABC? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: The ABC has spent six years having no efficiency dividend applied to it by the Labor Government. COMPERE: You knew that. You knew that the ABC had not had an efficiency dividend for six years… CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well you can argue about this, or you can try and help the production and programming here in Adelaide. COMPERE: What I’m saying is that it may well be a good argument for cutting the ABC, and there may well be a good argument for the ABC sharing in the cuts across the board… CHRISTOPHER PYNE: There is, there is. COMPERE: Then why didn’t you make that at the election? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well we have to reduce the budget debt and deficit. Now Labor’s position is you can spend and spend and spend for as long as you like and as much as you like and there’s never a day of reckoning. Now Australians know that isn’t true. That’s why they elected us to fix the problem. COMPERE: Mark Butler, Federal Labor MP for Port Adelaide, do you accept a share of the blame here? That if you effectively make the ABC a target by isolating it from cuts? MARK BUTLER: Well, there’s so much to respond to there Matthew, the defence that Tony Abbott just didn’t know what he was talking about when he made the promise not to make any cuts to the ABC, the idea that the ABC had been wallowing in gravy or something for the last 6 six years, there were very significant efficiencies made by the ABC during our term in government but instead of returning that money to the budget or spending the money on something else, we supported the ABC’s decision to create ABC24 and an ABC online platform with those efficiencies. Those were done without extra money through some very difficult decisions the ABC Board and management made to find efficiencies from elsewhere in the organisation, so this insinuation by Christopher that ABC staff spent 6 years wallowing in gravy while the rest of the public service made hard decisions is wrong… COMPARE: but Mark Butler, while you’re making political point and… MARK BUTLER: … it’s not a political point, it’s a very important programming point… COMPARE: You are making a political point about a broken promise, while you’re doing that, aren’t you mixing up the issues and that is there is, Chris Pyne makes a very good point here, and that the ABC could well be using this decision to have budget cuts to simply rationalise services, something that many people in the ABC have always wanted to do, continue to rationalise services to the eastern seaboard? MARK BUTLER: Well, there has been an agenda for some time in other parts of the ABC as I understand it to rationalise to Sydney, Melbourne and Brisbane and maybe Christopher didn’t know about that when he voted in the Cabinet to cut the ABC’s budget to the degree that he did, but this petition is just extraordinary front on his part, it’s not a ‘Python-esque’ petition, it’s the ‘Pontius Pilate’ petition because what did he think was going to happen when he voted for these cuts to the ABC, leaving aside for the moment that they are a direct breach of a promise made the night before the election by the Prime Minister. COMPARE: …Hang on, hang on, is ABC management on the eastern seaboard, Mark Butler, so dangerous that you can’t cut them, because if you do they will savage all of the BAF States rather than take them on, you just keep giving them money, that seems to be the argument from the Coalition. MARK BUTLER: That’s a matter you should put to Malcolm Turnbull and Christopher Pyne and to other Cabinet Ministers who voted for these cuts did they put any conditions on those cuts to the management? It’s all well and good for Christopher to launch this ‘Pontius Pilate’ petition after the fact, this has been around for months, ABC staff, other than the Australian Network who were terminated months ago, other ABC staff have had this sword of Damocles hanging over their head now for months, the government typical to their form has been keeping everything secret and staff in Adelaide had to find out about this from the Media Watch program earlier this week. It’s for Malcolm Turnbull to say whether or not they imposed any conditions on the ABC Board when they imposed these massive cuts. COMPARE: Bill Denny is chairman of the RSL ANZAC Day Committee, at a quarter to nine, welcome to the program Bill Denny. BILL DENNY: Yeah good morning boys. COMPARE: and what do you want to say? BILL DENNY: I just think one of the things we’re really going to lose in the State is the capacity to produce the ANZAC Day package, now I’ve been the chairman of the ANZAC Day Committee for 20 years and in recent years the ABC has done a marvellous job of preparing an ANZAC Day package which starts at the Dawn Service and runs for several hours right through to the end of the Cross of Sacrifice Ceremony from 6am until about midday and involves interviews and has a very local focus, they bring down Professor Bill Gammage from Sydney and he helps compare the march, it really stands out around Australia as being one of the best coverages. It’s very important to veterans because, as Christopher would know, our service history is generally localised, what happened in NSW battalions is not so relevant to South Australia, we have our own local military history and you get that with a local production. It’s very popular particularly now that older veterans can’t get out to the march, they watch at home or… COMPARE: and you’re worried that will be lost? BILL DENNY: …watch it in nursing homes. Of course, and I think it will be lost, it’s been guaranteed for next year, but from then on, I understand that what we’re going to get, I think what we’re going to get, is the Sydney march and then a flash to 5 or 10 minutes in each of the other States, and coming for the last 3 years of the ANZAC Centenary, that’s just downright insulting and diminishes the whole spirit of ANZAC and our recollections of it. COMPARE: Chris Pyne? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, Bill makes a good point. A couple of things though: I don’t think there’s any possibility that there’ll ever be a day when the Adelaide viewers have to watch a Sydney ANZAC march but there’s no reason whatsoever why… COMPARE: But there will be if there’s no production facilities here… CHRISTOPHER PYNE: There’ll always have to be some kind of production facilities here because of the news and the weather et cetera that will still be done from here. But let’s not jump the gun, the reality is this doesn’t have to happen, this has to be stopped. Ultimo needs to be told this is not allowed to happen. You cannot just decide rather than implementing the cuts that Peter Lewis showed could be done without affecting production and programming, you can’t just accept that Mark Scott and the ABC Board can make these decisions without any push back. Now we have to try to save the Adelaide production and programming, and I’m going to do what I can to do it. Now Mark Butler would rather throw stones at glass houses, the reality is Labor has put us in this position, Malcom Turnbull did the work for Mark Scott to show how the reductions could be made without affecting programming and production, just like Bill Denny wants and I want as well, and I know Bill Denny pretty well, this can be done without any cuts to ABC in South Australia. COMPERE: At 12 minutes to 9 let’s go to Harry from Meningie. Hello Harry. CALLER: … Listen for 40 plus years I’ve seen the ABC behemoth slowly grow and grow and grow. I’ve also seen local facilities shrink and shrink and shrink and I’ve also seen the quality of the programs produced from that Sydney bloody giant become worse and worse and worse. So much so that my contact with the ABC has shrunk to a little bit of background noise from you blokes in the morning and during the day other than that I just don’t bother anymore, because I just don’t find it a relevant media despite all of the taxpayers money I pour into it. COMPERE: So you won’t miss it. Look Harry from Meningie, thank you. David from Mt Compass, welcome to the program David at 11 minutes to 9. As we have Chris Pyne and Mark Butler on air with us. CALLER: Good morning Gentlemen, COMPERE: Yes CALLER: I’d just like to put a question to Chris Pyne. Does he support the submarines being built in South Australia and as a representative of South Australia what is he doing about helping to secure the building of the submarines in South Australia? COMPERE: What about a petition for submarine workers? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I’m doing everything I can David to make sure that Osborne is secured for decades into the future with all the work that can possibly be done there to at least double the workforce, double the investment, secure the Osborne place. Now whether that is, how that is going to be achieved, it’s hard for me to talk about it because I’m a member of the National Security Committee that has been discussing it. But obviously, it has been there because of a joint project with the Swedish Kockums, with Germany, with France, with Australia for the Collins Class submarine. There will be an announcement at some stage there hasn’t been a decision made about the next generation. Labor left us with a six year gap because they didn’t make a decision. We’ll need to make a decision and I can assure you as South Australia’s only Cabinet Minister I lie awake at night thinking about how to make sure the workers at Osborne keep their jobs and I’ll be doing everything I can to make that happen. COMPERE: Mark Butler MARK BUTLER: inaudible…commit to an open competitive tender. A Senate inquiry report handed down this week recommended that and we heard from a number of Liberal backbenchers Liberal Senators arguing for an open competitive tender but they wouldn’t sign on to that recommendation from that Senate report. Now, I don’t know whether they were heavied by someone in the Government, but surely how can you argue against there being an open competitive tender so that all of the companies and countries that have expressed interest in helping Australia to partner with Australia to build the submarines in Port Adelaide can actually put in a bid. COMPERE: Let’s go to Nigel from Marino, hello Nigel. CALLER: yeah hello. My question is to Mr Pyne. During the last election, Mr Abbott continually harped on about Julia Gillard lying. My question is why won’t you answer the question directly about there being the, well the lies that put forward when Mr Abbott said there’d be not cuts to ABC funding? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well the reality is the money going to the ABC has been increasing every year and increased this year as well it just didn’t increase as fast as the ABC had projected so this is why it’s a rather anodyne debate about cuts, promises, increasing spending, for example spending on education in my portfolio is going up by 27 per cent for South Australia over the next four years and yet Labor continues to lie about it apparently being a cut. There is no cut of course, there is an increase in education spending. So we could spend a lot of time talking about that or talk about things like how are we going to make sure that the production of programming in Adelaide is not cut by Ultimo in Sydney because they refuse to make the difficult decisions about things they’ve been told they could do, but they simply won’t face. COMPERE: Let’s say it does result in job losses in Adelaide in particularly gutting our production facilities and to the point where you wouldn’t be able to cover the ANZAC day ceremony. If you think you can without a production facility here you don’t know a lot about how to cover a big event like that, I can just say that to you CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I’m not an expert on television production COMPERE: No, no, no, I’m just saying if you get rid of your production facilities here you will not have a local coverage here or anywhere else of an ANZAC day march. Now what can the Cabinet do? If the reality is Malcolm Turnbull announces the exact dollar amount, he says it on Q&A about 5 per cent and the ABC’s response is these jobs will go in Adelaide and elsewhere, and Sydney’s not going to be quarantined from this there’ll be a lot of job losses and maybe programmes affected. Apart from baying at the moon Chris Pyne, is there anything the Cabinet can do about that? Would it consider directing the ABC? Would it consider taking back control of certain spending at the ABC? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well the ABC is a completely independent organisation, this isn’t another difficulty this is just the reality of it. They are completely independent. They will be able to make the decisions as they see fit. COMPERE: What about Xenophon’s idea to change the charter requiring an amount of regional production? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I don’t think, the charter is basically part of the Act, a set of motherhood statements. COMPERE: Well stop making it a motherhood statement. Put in the charter as Xenophon suggests a requirement that the ABC has a certain commitment outside of Sydney and Melbourne. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well it does have a certain commitment outside of Sydney and Melbourne. It has to have regional radio and television. COMPERE: Well apparently not. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well there’s no requirement to have production outside of Sydney and Melbourne. I agree I think that is a problem. Now we could look at lots of things. But the reality is the first thing to do rather than, as much as I love Nick Xenophon, jumping to something that is not going to solve the immediate problem. The immediate problem is there is a board. Jim Spiegelmen is the chairman and there is a board. They have the power to direct Mark Scott as to what to do. They are representative of the entire country. There not supposed to just be sitting in an ivory tower in Ultimo letting Mark Scott making every decision that he wants to make. They are the board of the business, of the commission. So they must make some decisions and what I want to do is to put pressure on them to recognise that they must have production outside of Sydney and Melbourne. COMPERE: Sorry Mark Butler? MARK BUTLER: It’s quite clear here that Christopher and other ministers haven’t thought about those options that Nick Xenophon and others are raising. It’s quite clear they just haven’t thought through the obvious consequences that were going to flow through from this cut. Now Christopher might call this an anodyne debate, but it’s simply not an anodyne debate for 150 families who are facing the prospect by the end of this week of not having jobs or the thousands and thousands of households in South Australia and elsewhere that have enjoyed for years the ABC’s programming. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: And for six years you were part of a cabinet of a government who spent and spend and spent without ever thinking for one moment how on earth is that money going to be paid back and now you want try and coast back into government on the back of the Coalition who are doing the right thing by the Australian people by paying back the debt and deficit you left us so I’m not going to be lectured to you about that. COMPERE: Let’s quickly go to Adrian and then David from St Peters. Just quickly Adrian, your point? CALLER: Yeah, it you ever wanted it, you couldn’t get a more clearer idea of saying something before an election and after an election. Day before the election ‘there’ll be no cuts to the ABC’ then a few months afterwards you get Kevin Andrews quoting ‘what goes around comes around’ when referring to the libs not getting a fair go on ABC programming. That’s the very clear contrast. COMPERE: Well let’s hope the ABC is not guilty of failing to give the libs and anyone else a fair go. Adrian thanks for your point. David from St Peters? CALLER: Gentleman the main issue surely is in other areas. Health has gone from 30% to 50% of the budget and yet other areas get cut. For example in South Australia environment got cut from 7.1 to 2.3 so why don’t we cure the areas that have got the big problems and everybody else take a moderate cut. The ABC should take a cut. Other departments have taken bigger cuts. So why should they be given special treatment. We don’t want to reduce education. Health is going out the door. Just get the overall global situation in order. COMPERE: David from St Peters thankyou for that. Chris Pyne if your petition doesn’t achieve the desired effect and protect jobs in Adelaide or elsewhere, is there any chance that the government will reconsider the size of the cuts. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: The ABC has to do its share of the heavy lifting just like everybody else. COMPERE: So you support a 5% cut? CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I believe there are inefficiencies at the ABC which could be reduced and therefore save money. That should not affect production and programming. And we had a proper study done by Peter Lewis to make sure that we could find out what those would be and Mark Scott has that report. Now if he refuses to implement that, if he instead decides to act in a political way to damage Adelaide rather than make reductions in his own efficiencies in Ultimo and elsewhere then this will just be of a peace of what ABC management has been doing for years. Of course there’s no production in Perth. There’s no production in Brisbane. Adelaide is the only production and programming outside Sydney and Melbourne. It’s been part of a long term strategy. It’s time the ABC board stop taking the salary, turning up to the meetings and having the short bread creams and cups of tea and actually make some tough decision about directing their CEO to implement the Lewis report rather than hurt Adelaide production and programming. COMPERE: Christopher Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt and Education Minister, Leader of the House. Thankyou very much for coming into our studios here in Adelaide today. CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Always a pleasure. COMPERE: And Mark Butler, on the dog and bone Labor MP for Port Adelaide and Labor environment spokesman, thankyou Mark Butler.