ABC 891

E&OE TRANSCRIPT 891 ABC ADELAIDE Date: 1/10/2014 SUBJECTS:  The budget deficit, South Australian leadership Newspoll, Australia’s military involvement in the Middle East.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Both our guests join us from Canberra today. Good morning, Mark Butler, Labor MP for Port Adelaide. Good morning, Mark? We’re having problems. We’ve got gremlins in our system today.   DAVID BEVAN:       That’s okay. And we will go to Chris Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt. He’s probably standing on the phone line.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    We will come back.   DAVID BEVAN:       We will come to them in a moment. Let’s try Mark Butler again.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Good morning, Mark Butler?   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     I’m here.   DAVID BEVAN:       That’s Christopher Pyne.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    That’s Chris Pyne.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     I am.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    The unmistakable tones. Chris Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt, Education Minister and Leader of the House. Welcome to the program, Chris Pyne, from Canberra.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Thank you Matthew and David. And Mark asked me to handle his side of the debate.   DAVID BEVAN:       That was very generous of him.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     I said I would. I said I would.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    You think you can handle it on all sides.   DAVID BEVAN:       Yes.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     I think I can be fair.   DAVID BEVAN:       So, Chris Pyne, can you give us Mark Butler’s assessment of his leader, Bill Shorten?   MARK BUTLER:     I’m here now.   DAVID BEVAN:       Okay.   MARK BUTLER:     I realised that was a terrible mistake on my part.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    No. No. It wasn’t a good idea. Mark Butler is Labor MP for Port Adelaide, Opposition Environment and Climate Change spokesman.   DAVID BEVAN:       Christopher Pyne, there’s speculation this morning that the government will retreat from its budget regroup and try again with a mid-year budget review. You’ve got some flexibility with your portfolio, the major portfolio of education. Are you working on a revised package?   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, I’m working on getting the reform bill through the Senate, probably at the end of October, when the Senate Committee has reported. Of course, there’s always room for negotiation. That’s part of the process of not having a controlling vote in the Senate. And for 37 of the last 40 years, governments have had to negotiate with the cross-benchers in the Senate. But Joe Hockey has been on AM this morning on the inestimable AM program on your ABC.   DAVID BEVAN:       It’s a fine program.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE: And has made it clear the front page story in the Financial Review was an absolute beat-up, not based on any fact. We are very determined to repair the damage left to us by Labor in terms of debt and deficit and…   DAVID BEVAN:       But has the urgency gone out of it? Particularly with the Australian Dollar heading south?   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     It’s good news that the Australian Dollar is heading south, particularly good news for South Australia, which of course has a very large reliance on agricultural exports. It helps our wine industry, for example. So I’m very pleased about that.   DAVID BEVAN:       So the budget may fix itself?   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     No, it won’t fix itself. I mean, the damage Labor left was $240 billion of deficits over six years, debt rising to $667 billion; it was left unchecked.   DAVID BEVAN:       That wasn’t all theirs, was it? You kicked in a fair bit of that, didn’t you, for helping the Reserve Bank.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     No. No, not a fair bit. $240 billion and we’ve been in government for a year. And that is the accumulation of the Labor Party’s six budget deficits. It has got nothing to do with us at all, so…   DAVID BEVAN:       Well, just remind us how much you added to that deficit?   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, we tried – we made sure the Reserve Bank was on a proper footing by putting $8 billion into it, so it could actually deal with monetary and fiscal policy effectively. But I wouldn’t say that that was a fair bit of $240 billion.   DAVID BEVAN:       Well, it’s a lot of money.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     I mean, if you think that’s a fair bit of 240, then I hope your wife’s doing your household budget.   DAVID BEVAN:       Well, Chris Pyne, I think it’s a fair bit in a few weeks.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     No.   DAVID BEVAN:       It was a fair bit in a few weeks.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     No. Labor in six budgets ran $240 billion of deficits and had debt rising to $667 billion and took over zero net debt…   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    So is Bob Day wasting his time?   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Zero net debt and a $22 billion surplus.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Okay. So…   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     So let’s not try and blame the Coalition for the problem that Labor created.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Right. So is Bob Day wasting his time?   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     I don’t know to what you’re referring?   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Well, Bob Day was on this program yesterday and he has been in the media the last few days saying he thinks he can cut a deal with Joe Hockey over a whole range of welfare measures. “Now, I won’t be giving you everything you wanted,” but he thinks he can, “ease some of the pain on families and give you something of what you need in terms of savings.” He’s probably just wasting his time because the government is locked into the budget delivered earlier this year.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, it’s never a waste of time to negotiate with the crossbenchers, of course it’s not. Now, what we’re doing is we’re slowly and methodically trying to repair the damage left to us. We abolished the mining tax, we abolished the carbon tax, we stopped the boats, we’re building the infrastructure of the 21^st Century, we’re now trying to get our higher education reforms through the Senate and other budget measures. Now, Bob Day, I’ve been talking to him about my reforms and other crossbenchers are being very helpful, and we welcome that, and we expect that there will be changes made, but the fundamental point about how we need to fix the budget and get our savings measures through remains, and we’re certainly not retreating from fixing the legacy left to us by Labor of debt and deficit.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Mark Butler, it’s your fault, according to Chris Pyne, right, with this careless mess and you’re not helping fix it in any way, shape or form.   MARK BUTLER:     I have to give Christopher this: he must be the most disciplined adherent to the Prime Minister’s office talking points in the government. He is just relentless about it. But can I say that in the mid-year budget outlook at the Treasurer Joe Hockey released, within weeks of being elected, I think it was early December, it is quite clear now – it’s on the record – that he doubled the budget deficit. The budget deficit was about $55 billion, from memory, over the course of the forward estimate, so the four years, and that figure was reached by the secretaries of the treasury department and the finance department in the lead in to the election, the so-called pre-election fiscal outlook. So it had nothing to do with us. It was the figure reached by the top economic bureaucrats. And by the mid-year budget review, it had blown out under Joe Hockey to over $120 billion; doubled by him. Yes, there was the Reserve Bank funding, and I will leave aside a debate about whether that was necessary or not for the minute, but there were a range of policy decisions also taken by the government – for example, around multinational tax payments, the tax paid for very high superannuation payments and such like – so the strategy was quite clear. What Joe Hockey wanted to do was to create this idea of a budget emergency to justify the harsh cuts put in place or attempted to put in place in this budget, and it’s all falling apart around their ears. It’s absolutely falling apart. Now, they were trying to pretend [indistinct]…   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    [Interrupts] Do you concede [indistinct]…   MARK BUTLER:     [Interrupts] They were trying to pretend that this front page story in the Financial Review just appeared out of nowhere. Look, you know if you’ve been around for a while these stories don’t appear out of nowhere. Clearly there was a message sent by Joe Hockey that they were going to start to retreat, and Joe was sent out to try and [indistinct]…   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    [Interrupts] Well, why was [indistinct]…   MARK BUTLER:     [Interrupts]…bring this up on the AM program. Remarkably [indistinct]…   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Why would Joe Hockey do that and then go on the AM program and deny it?   MARK BUTLER:     Because he was told to. Because he was told to and then [indistinct]…   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    [Interrupts] But why would he then [indistinct]…   MARK BUTLER:     [Interrupts]…what happened is the – just in case Joe didn’t do it properly, the finance minister, Mathias Cormann – this happens from time to time, the favourite minister of the Prime Minister’s office – was then sent to traipse around to the House of Representatives and appear at the door – it’s bizarre. A finance minister from the Senate to appear at the House of Representatives doors to reassure everyone that the government was firmly committed to cutting pensions, to cutting health, to doing all of the other terrible things that were outlined [indistinct]…   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    [Interrupts] Mark Butler, do you mind if we just backtrack? You’re saying that Joe Hockey planted the story in the Fin Review; correct.   MARK BUTLER:     No, I’m just saying it came from [indistinct]…   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    [Interrupts] No, hang on, hang on. No, no, don’t [indistinct]…   MARK BUTLER:     [Interrupts]…these things don’t come from nowhere.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    No, no. I know, I just want [indistinct]…   MARK BUTLER:     [Interrupts] They came from somewhere in the government.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    I’m trying to work [indistinct]…   MARK BUTLER:     [Interrupts] Whether it was Joe or some [indistinct]…   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Well, hang on though.   MARK BUTLER:     [Interrupts]…other bureaucracy or someone else.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     That’s not what he said before.   MARK BUTLER:     They pretend to be – they pretend [indistinct]…   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    [Interrupts] No, Mark Butler [indistinct]…   MARK BUTLER:     [Interrupts]…that these things come from nowhere.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    No, no, Mark Butler, can I just work you through the logic, as you said. You’re saying that Joe Hockey planted this story or got someone to do it for him in the Fin Review, then went on AM and shot the story down and then Mathias Cormann came out and backed up Joe Hockey shooting his own story down.   MARK BUTLER:     He was clearly sent out by the Prime Minister’s office because this budget [indistinct] is a complete shambles.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    But Mark Butler, that doesn’t make any – what you’re putting…   MARK BUTLER:     Exactly. I agree with you. This doesn’t make any sense at all, Matthew. This doesn’t make any sense at all. Joe Hockey cannot get his lines right.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     I think you’ve got yourself into a bit of a cul-de-sac, Mark.   MARK BUTLER:     He cannot get his lines right. At some stage he says that he is firmly committed to all those terrible cuts in the budget, then he says if the Senate doesn’t agree to it there will be even worse cuts. Then he is told to retract that, which he does, and then goes off on this frolic, “Well, maybe we will just put all this on the backburner and get what we can”.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    It sounds a bit…   MARK BUTLER:     This is an utter shambles. This is an utter shambles on the part of the government.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Doesn’t there have to be some logic though, too?   MARK BUTLER:     I wish there was more logic to this budget strategy as well and I think [indistinct]…   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     I think I better check – I think I better check with the…   MARK BUTLER:     [indistinct] a bit more logic.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     I think I had better check what mushrooms the dining room was serving at breakfast time because it sounds like Mark Butler has been eating the wrong kind to me. I’ve never heard such a far-fetched ridiculous story.   MARK BUTLER:     Well, if you can explain the budget strategy clearly, Christopher, you’re doing much better than your finance minister and your treasurer.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, I can explain your strategy. Labor, having set fire to the house, the firemen have turned up, which is the Coalition, to put it out and now you’re trying to mug the firemen and stop them from putting out the fire. That’s a very simple explanation to Labor’s strategy.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Mark Butler, in terms of paying back debt, when will the Labor Party address that as an issue? Do you regard it as a problem?   MARK BUTLER:     Well, we had a very clear plan for paying down our debt. Now, you know, tracking back to the global financial crisis, the massive hit to government revenues that that involved and then the hit to commodity prices which the new government, the Liberal Government, is now dealing with as well. I mean, you talked about to Christopher the reduction in the Australian Dollar but at the same time as the dollar is, thankfully, coming down and this will be of benefit to a number of South Australian industries, the iron ore price is coming down much further than the Australian Dollar so this government will suffer the same difficulties that our government suffered which is a very significant collapse in revenue. Now, we had a plan in place to make sensible cuts to revenue, sensible savings measures that time and time again were opposed and blocked [indistinct]…   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Well, Roy has got a question. Roy has called from Beaumont. Hello Roy. Good morning, Roy.   CALLER ROY:         A lovely fiery discussion this morning.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Now, Roy, your view. You’ve got a question, I think.   CALLER ROY:         Yes, I do. Look, this is for Christopher. If there is such a debt crisis why are we spending millions, if not billions, sending our troops over to Iraq yet again to protect American oil interests? And don’t give us that pap about humanitarian crisis because there are lots of humanitarian crises in the world. Why this one?   DAVID BEVAN:       Christopher Pyne.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, a couple of things. There certainly is a debt crisis and let me explain this to Roy. Because of Labor we are paying $1.2 billion every month in interest repayments.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    I think you’ve had a pretty good go on the debt crisis response.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     But Roy asked about the debt crisis. He said there was no such thing as a debt crisis.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    No but the point of his question is why are we spending…   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, I’m happy – I will get to that.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Okay.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     The north-south corridor is costing a billion dollars of Commonwealth money. We could buy 12 north-south corridors in a year on the basis of the interest repayments that Labor left – dead money, most of which we’re sending overseas so there’s certainly a debt crisis and we have to address it and stop paying that [indistinct]…   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    And what will our military engagement – what will our open-ended military engagement now do to that debt crisis?   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, number one, we haven’t got an open-ended military engagement.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Well, what’s the end point then?   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     What we are doing is protecting our domestic and international security by ensuring that people like the Islamic State don’t get the kind of foothold in Iraq and Syria that the Taliban and al-Qaeda did in Afghanistan.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    So what’s the exit strategy now if it’s not open-ended?   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, Matthew, don’t you support the action in the Middle East?   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    No, I’m not asking that. You said it’s not open-ended. If it’s not open-ended it must have an end, and when is the end?   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     “Open-ended” suggests that we will send whatever forces we can. What we are doing is a very prudent, methodical and sensible response, which is eight Super Hornets and 600 RAAF and other personnel as military advisers and an attack force to protect Australia’s domestic and international interests. There are Australians fighting with the Islamic State in the Middle East. They also represent a potential terror threat here in Australia, and we’ve seen that played out over the last several weeks.   DAVID BEVAN:       Mark Butler, do you support the government’s action in sending support to the fight in Iraq?   MARK BUTLER:     We have said that we do, and –   DAVID BEVAN:       So you don’t agree with Roy [indistinct]?   MARK BUTLER:     I don’t accept Roy’s characterisation of why we’re doing this. As I think I’ve said before on this program, a very compelling driver for our supporters is the fact that a democratically-elected government in Iraq, a new administration that I think has significant confidence around the world, is much more ecumenical than I think the last administration, have asked for the support of nations, including Australia, to confront the threat of ISIS. And I think that is quite a unique situation here and is a very significant part of the reason why the Labor Party has given its support to the government’s decision to send a fairly limited but significant force to operate in Iraq.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Now, just quickly, before we go on a South Australian issue, Chris Pyne, the latest Newspoll, how long – is Steven Marshall now on borrowed time when you’ve got a situation where a government can introduce or double a new tax or double the emergency services levy, take a hammering on the car park tax, get a high profile defector from the Liberal Party and still pull ahead in the polls?   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     I think this poll is a very poor result for the South Australian Labor Party. They’ve spent $1.1 million - $1.1 million – of South Australian taxpayers’ money running a television and radio advertising campaign…   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    And it’s working a treat.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     …attacking the Liberals for several months. And it’s not working a treat. They crept ahead of the Liberal Party 51-49. It’s basically a statistical blip. You would think after spending $1.1 million of South Australian taxpayers’ money bagging the other side that they would be doing much, much better. I think what that poll tells us is that it doesn’t matter how much money of the South Australian taxpayers the Labor Party spends, the South Australian public knows it is a tired, listless government without any ideas about creating jobs and growing the economy, led by a weak, insipid premier who was in power when 53 percent of the South Australian voters wanted a change of government.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Mark Butler?   MARK BUTLER:     Well, we’re often asked to talk about polls that involve one or two per cent changes here or there, and usually they’re within the margin of error. But this is not a statistical blip, this is an extraordinary result, and the Liberal Party has suffered a nine per cent collapse in its primary vote. Premier Weatherill has extended his lead as preferred premier by nine per cent, and there’s an eight per cent improvement in Jay’s net satisfaction rating. These are extraordinary numbers, and I think reflect the problem that Christopher and Rob Lucas and all of the other elders in the Liberal Party now confront, having coached Steven Marshall to be a leader that said little or nothing about the future of South Australia, not to mention the trashing of the Liberal Party brand that’s involved in the Abbott Government’s budget.   MATTHEW ABRAHAM:    Well, we will talk to Steven Marshall and Ian Hunter, the Minister for the Environment, shortly, but we thank you, Mark Butler, Labor MP for Port Adelaide. And Chris Pyne, thank you.   CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Pleasure. [ends]