ABC 891

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
Interview – ABC 891 Adelaide with Matthew Abraham, David Bevan and Mark Butler
Wednesday 24 June 2015

SUBJECTS: ABC Q&A programme; School funding.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: He’s the newly elected federal president of the ALP – he’s the Opposition’s environment and climate change spokesperson, he’s the Member for Port Adelaide. Mark Butler, welcome to the programme.

MARK BUTLER: Good morning.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: And congratulations – El Presidente.

MARK BUTLER: Thank you very much.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Christopher Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt, he’s just the humble Education Minister.

MARK BUTLER: Humble?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Very humble.

MARK BUTLER: I’ve heard Christopher called things but that’s not one of them.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I’m humble and modest.

MARK BUTLER: A humble fixer.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Nobody does humility and modesty quite like you, Christopher Pyne I think it is fair to say.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I think my electorate know me as humble and modest and that’s why they keep re-electing me.

DAVID BEVAN: Do you have much to be humble and modest about?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Indeed, I do have much to be humble and modest about – especially my sporting prowess.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Chris Pyne, does the AL – ABC – whoops, does the ABC need to eat humble pie over the…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: That was a bit of a Freudian slip.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Yes – over Q&A – it certainly was, not the first time it has been done. Well I know I mean we have - the reaction has been quite hysterical in News Limited papers including one which is taken an ISIS flag and put the ABC symbol on it.

DAVID BEVAN: Can you list for us the things that you think were inappropriate about the Q&A broadcast?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I didn’t see the Q&A broadcast but I have obviously caught up with happened and I have spoken to Malcolm Turnbull about it and he is extremely concerned about it and I think the ABC made a very serious error of judgement – I can’t quite fathom why they would do that. What is wrong with it is that they gave a person of very dubious character - I can put it that way - a platform to promote ideas that are not helpful to the cohesion of our society and the ABC should be all about promoting harmony and cohesion – it shouldn’t be about giving a platform to views that are inimical to our country’s interest. Secondly and I think more importantly, knowing Q&A as well as I do I have been on it 22 times there is very little security arrangement for the audience and for the panel. Now I have never felt in the least bit insecure in Q&A ever even when the students unravelled their banner, I regard that as all part of the cut and thrust of the political debate - I didn’t feel the least bit personally insecure. But to bring a person of his character into the studio audience with the panel there as well knowing that it is very unlikely checked for anything that could have done any damage to the audience – I think is a very serious matter.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: We’re talking about somebody who has been described as a known extremist – Zaky Mallah who appeared – well he, we’re told he applied to be part of the audience and submitted a question and then went on further. But he is somebody who has served a term according to what we understand, served a term of improvement of threatening to kill ASIO officers and had been charged with threatening suicide attacks and preparing terrorist attacks in that context although been acquitted. So Chris Pyne, there is two issues here, because some people would say no matter how extreme the views are, we live in a free society, people can express those views. Or are you looking to limit those, as saying the major issues is the lack of security?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: To me it is.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: The physical threat to people?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I am a free speech supporter but I don’t think the ABC should have given Zaky Mallah a platform and of course he was acquitted according to Steve Ciobo, the Parliamentary Secretary for Foreign Affairs, on a technicality. He is a person of interest to the Australian Federal Police, ASIO and security agencies in Australia because of his extremist views, which he hasn’t moderated. But I also think that that was a very dangerous and risky I suppose risky potentially reckless thing for the ABC to bring him into contact with the audience and with the capacity for a live broadcast to make a political statement and to go even further than that if he chose to do so. Now I think that it was a mistake on the ABC’s part, I am glad they have apologised. And let’s hope they learn from that mistake.

DAVID BEVAN: Mark Butler?

MARK BUTLER: Well I think I broadly agree with Christopher Pyne. I think there has been some commentary around which is seeking to pile on the ABC generally and piling on the Q&A programme generally which I think is a little over the top. But I think the ABC did make an error of judgement here. This fellow is a very serious fellow convicted of very serious offences and I think Malcolm Turnbull’s explanation of his position to the Parliament yesterday was broadly the right one which is that the ABC should investigate the decision to invite this fellow on or to allow this fellow on. From two perspectives as Christopher says – firstly the security perspective, this is a live studio audience with a significant number of audience members – I have been on this programme many times as well – and there is very little security precaution taken about the people who are allowed in to that room. The second issue I think is a trickier issue – that is the one of editorial decisions being taken by the ABC and I don’t think it is proper that Christopher or I seek to substitute our own views about what the ABC should do in this matter but I think it is right that the ABC investigate the decision to allow this fellow on who has such extreme views and has a very serious record of as you say threatening to kill ASIO officers and a range of various other serious things as well so I think broadly speaking Turnbull got it right here. His as I understand it given the ABC access to the Federal Police to start to think about some of the security precautions that would be taken in an audience like this but I also think the board should have a think through the editorial process in allowing someone like this on a platform like Q&A.

DAVID BEVAN: Look if we cut to the chase, most of us would think that this Zaky Mallah is a lunatic, alright. But should we also be careful when a Prime Minister says to the media: “who’s side are you on?”.

MARK BUTLER: Well I think that, I don’t think that has helped the debate at all. I think Turnbull’s contribution to the Parliament yesterday was measured, I think it reflected the seriousness of what happened on Monday night, without seeking to pile in on the ABC in the way in which the Prime Minister unfortunately has and a number of other people in particularly News Corp newspapers have this morning. I don’t want to understate the seriousness of what happened but I think to pile on the ABC as a general proposition and say you are either with us or against us which is effectively what the PM has said is not helpful but I think what Turnbull has done is the right - essentially the right path.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Let’s go to Phoebe from Highbury at sixteen minutes to nine as we talk to Mark Butler and Chris Pyne – two key players in their respective parties. Mark Butler of the Labor Party, he’s now party president of that. Chris Pyne – a very important strategist with Tony Abbott – sometimes plays the role of attack dog; he is the Education Minister and Liberal MP for Sturt. Phoebe – good morning Phoebe.

CALLER PHOEBE: Good morning. I am actually living in your electorate, Christopher, and I just want to correct you on something. I was actually recently in the Q&A audience – went over for the Sydney Vivid Festival and went in to experience democracy at its best, watching the Q&A show. I took my daughter who was fourteen and we actually both had to register providing ID – I had to provide my license after I registered online to prove who I was and then once we got to the doors before we went in we were all given a rundown of how the show actually worked and the respect and how the security would operate in the event that people weren’t doing as they were told.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: But would it have been possible, Phoebe, for you to take a knife or a gun?

CALLER PHOEBE: No, no. because all of our bags were checked and we were all thoroughly examined and we were in the waiting room for about an hour before the show even occurred.

DAVID BEVAN: So you were body searched?

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: We weren’t body searched but I can tell you that there was a lot of surveillance of what is going on while you’re waiting to go in there.

DAVID BEVAN: Well I tell you what, I’d like, if I was sitting next to Zaky Mallah I’d like to know that he was body searched before he came in.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Yeah but then I think we would then... where do we stop that, you know?

DAVID BEVAN: Well no, no. I don’t think there should be any stopping, Phoebe.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: If you know who this person is, and they did, they are not answering, Q&A is not answering, the ABC Is not answering whether they approached him, but he certainly submitted his question and his question was chosen we are told from dozens and dozens and dozens of questions that were sent in.

DAVID BEVAN: You would want to know that he was body searched.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Or don’t you, Phoebe?

CALLER PHOEBE: No because this is where we go into thought crimes. And if anyone’s seen Minority Report I don’t know that as a society that is where we want to go. And…

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Well Phoebe they weren’t worrying about thought crimes you know in the Lindt Café – that was the crime that was committed there.

DAVID BEVAN: That wasn’t a thought crime, that wasn’t science fiction.

CALLER PHOEBE: Are we all going to be held against … accountable for what we did in the past? I would hate to live in a society where that is the case. And I think that again hysteria and fear, was just all feeding into that if we remove a show like Q&A then…

DAVID BEVAN: But he was encouraging people to go off and fight in Syria in that moment. Don’t worry about what he was doing previously, he was saying…

CALLER PHOEBE: No I think his comment was that he, you can understand and I think that is again the purpose of the show for people to express their frustration of some Government policies and I would hate to see…

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: But Phoebe it is a pretty well handpicked… you say it is a crucible of democracy.

CALLER PHOEBE: I don’t - no I didn’t use those words. I just think it is important for us to…

DAVID BEVAN: Well democracy at its best.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Democracy at its best – well, a handpicked democracy.

CALLER PHOEBE: I said it was a good example to show my daughter and there was a group of school kids in there as well and I just think…

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: I thought you said it was democracy as best. That’s all.

CALLER PHOEBE: I would hate to see that taken away from…

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: I doubt it would be taken away, it will power on.

CALLER PHOEBE: …from one situation where the discourse got out of hand.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Right. Well Phoebe, look thank you – that’s Phoebe’s view from Highbury. Christopher from Blackforrest, thankyou Christopher.

CALLER CHRISTOPHER: G’day.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Can never have too many Christopher’s on the programme. Christopher, what is your view?

CALLER CHRISTOPHER: I think the problem the ABC got itself into was giving Mallah a platform he was able to say that because of people like Ciobo that is why Muslims should go and fight with ISIS. That is possibly a criminal offence in itself. So – encouraging people to fight with a terrorist group and that is the problem when you give someone with that background , that national platform you must be often in any risk management issue to consider that something like that could happen, that is the problem.

DAVID BEVAN: Christopher thank you for your thoughts. Christopher Pyne, do you think that Q&A is a lefty lynch mob as described by the Prime Minister?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Firstly I don’t agree with Phoebe and I didn’t get from Phoebe an answer although she did have a good run on whether she went through a scanner to determine whether there was any metal on her in her experience and I don’t think that happens and I have been there in many times and I have never seen a scanner at the ABC like we have at the airports for example which is a pretty comprehensive way of discovering whether somebody is concealing a weapon. So I think the security does need to be changed and I am glad the AFP is working with that. There is no doubt at all…

DAVID BEVAN: But lefty lynch mob?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I mean I go on Q&A, I enjoy Q&A, I think it is a great opportunity for the Government or the Liberal Party’s message out to a million viewers but there is no doubt that it is slanted in a particular view; political view. And you only need to look at the makeup of each of the panels to realise that. I mean anybody who pretends that the panel is a balanced panel of left and right and centre thinkers is kidding themselves. I mean there is always one Liberal or conservative and there are four, arguably with Tony Jones five people from the centre-left. That is just the way it is. We could choose not to go on it but I think that is madness because I want the viewing public to hear the Coalition’s message because I think it is the right message.

DAVID BEVAN: Okay, before we go – Mark Butler, there are reports today that your leader Bill Shorten he is stopping short of committing Labor at the next election to fund all of the Gonski money and all of the health money that you have been bagging Tony Abbott for ripping out over the last two years. Now will Labor reinstate all of the money that you have said Abbott has taken out of health and education?

MARK BUTLER: Well we have rightly been bagging him and I notice the…

DAVID BEVAN: Will you reinstate it?

MARK BUTLER: I will come to that, David. But the NSW Liberal Treasurer put the light on Christopher’s sort of protestations that there were no cuts to schools funding…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Why won’t you answer the question?

MARK BUTLER: …no cuts to school funding apparently. Well the NSW Liberal Treasurer says otherwise. What Bill said yesterday is I think entirely unremarkable. What he said is what I think most people in Australia think is that we will be better on schools and hospitals funding than the Liberal Party. And given the Federation Green Paper…

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: You can do that by promising $1 more can’t you?

MARK BUTLER: The Federation Green Paper I think this week just reinforced the views that this Government has with these things.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: But you’re not looking into the previous Government’s funding?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We have a hypocrisy in Mark and you know it.

MARK BUTLER: Of course we haven’t released our costing for the election yet.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Because you know you don’t have the money.

MARK BUTLER: That is a process we are going through. That the government keep wrecking the budget every single year. Joe Hockey doubled the deficit this year against last year’s budget papers so we are going through an orderly process to work out what our costings will be for the next election but I think everybody has confidence given the effort we put into this area, that we have an enormous commitment to a needs based funding process in schools .

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: The answer is no.

MARK BUTLER: …that will deliver an appropriate school resource standard.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: As the new president of the ALP you are going to have to get much better at sounding like you are answering the question when you are not really.

MARK BUTLER: I think I answered the question exactly as any opposition would. We are going through a process.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Every listener knows the answer that you just gave could have summed up with two letters – no. N-O, no, you are not going to provide that funding because you know you don’t have it, the taxpayer doesn’t have it and you know the funding is going up every year and you will support the Government’s policy at the next election.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Christopher Pyne – can you continue? No. Christopher Pyne, thank you. And Mark Butler.

MARK BUTLER: The humility all over again.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Thank you Mark Butler.

MARK BUTLER: Thank you very much.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Thank you.

[ends]