ABC 891

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
Interview - 891 ABC Adelaide Breakfast with Matthew Abraham, David Bevan and Mark Butler
Wednesday 18 March 2015

SUBJECT: Higher education reforms.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Christopher Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt, Education Minister, Leader of the House, joins us. Christopher Pyne, welcome to the program.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning Matthew.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: And Mark Butler Labor MP for Port Adelaide, he's the opposition's environment, climate change spokesman. Welcome to the program Mark Butler.

MARK BUTLER: Thank you, good morning.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Chris Pyne you say you're the fixer, but has the Senate fixed you?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, the reforms of the universities are far too important not to try to get through the Senate on both occasions, last year and yesterday. Obviously I worked very hard to try and get the Senate to agree to these reforms, five of the crossbenchers joined with the populist Labor Party and the irresponsible Greens to vote them down but, I'll keep talking to the crossbenchers over the next few months to try and work out how to pass them because they're too important for universities not to do so and too important for students.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: But Bill Shorten asked you a good question in Question Time yesterday, didn't he? And then he – you say you're the fixer, what have you fixed?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well actually I was referring to fixing the National Collaborative Research Infrastructure Scheme Funding that Labor cut and I fixed it. So I think Mr Shorten got a bit carried away with that term but I'm happy to try and fix Labor's mess. I mean Labor did leave the country in a mess. Six years of Labor, $667 billion of debt, $123 billion of accumulated deficits and we're trying to fix it.

DAVID BEVAN: Well you say you've fixed it, you've found an alternative Budget fix, well why then did you cause so much anxiety to the 1700 scientists who you said would have to lose their jobs?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well actually it was the Senate that was threatening their jobs, not me. I was actually finding the money through the reform.

DAVID BEVAN: Yes, yes but you were saying look if you don't pass this they're going to lose their jobs – as a result of your actions – but they're going to lose their jobs. In fact it wasn't that hard, within a day or two you'd come out and said well actually I fixed this, I found an alternative. Why did you cause so much stress to the 1700 scientists?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I didn't actually; Labor, the Greens and the crossbenchers were the ones who were threatening their jobs by refusing to pass the reform bill which had the savings in it that funded the National Collaborative Research Infrastructure Scheme. Labor de-funded it, I re-funded it and the crossbenchers, Labor and the Greens were both against that, so…

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Mark Butler, as you…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It wasn't me that was actually threatening anybody's jobs, I was actually saving their jobs.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Right. Mark Butler, do you accept that?

MARK BUTLER: Well, firstly this suggestion that Labor de-funded the NCRIS, the research programme, the 1700 jobs is complete garbage. We had exactly the same funding arrangement in place as John Howard put when he created the scheme back during the Howard Government. It is almost always the case that programmes like that, health programmes, aged care programmes and the like come up for reconsideration through a Budget process after a number of years and NCRIS was due to come up in 2015/2016. It had been funded by us as it had been funded by the Howard Government for a period of time, then requiring a Budget process. So to say that Labor had de-funded it is completely misleading. We had exactly the same arrangements in place that John Howard had when he created the NCRIS programme and it's a complete distraction from what has been an utter policy shambles.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: But Penny Wong described it yesterday in the Senate – Penny Wong described it as a lapsing programme, that it was…

MARK BUTLER: [Interrupts] Yeah but…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: [Indistinct]

MARK BUTLER: No, well Christopher if you paid a bit more attention to the Budget process, most programmes are lapsing programmes that come up for review through the normal Budget process. Most health programmes, most [indistinct] programmes…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: You can't get away from the fact that I've found the money that you were de-funding NCRIS. That's a fact.

MARK BUTLER: Well you can't get away from the fact that you held 1700 researchers' jobs hostage to try to bully – to try to bully the Senate to pass reforms that have frankly completely been rejected by the Australian community and for good reason.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No. No that's not what happened.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Chris Pyne on the weekend didn't you say the two couldn't be separated? That the reforms had to go hand in glove, you could not separate them and yet as a fixer within two days I think – three days – you were able to separate them. Where does that leave your credibility?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, on Sunday I made the point that I was finding the savings through the reform bill that funded the National Collaborative Research Infrastructure Scheme. That's true. Now it became apparent the crossbenchers – because I had also said that I was prepared to negotiate everything other than the fulcrum of the reform, which was deregulation. I was prepared to negotiate everything. One of those things that the crossbenchers wanted negotiated was the funding for National Collaborative Research Infrastructure Scheme. So I did that. I found the money on Monday and I fixed it and that was the genesis of the phrase the fixer – to get things done and I do get things done and so does this government.

MARK BUTLER: You created the phrase though, Christopher, don't suggest that someone else created it. You self-labelled yourself.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I don't think – I don't think anybody thinks being called the fixer is a new thing, I mean people get jobs done, they fix problems, and that's what I've done.

DAVID BEVAN: Earlier though…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Labor has left a problem, I've fixed it.

DAVID BEVAN: Earlier in the day we were talking to George Megalogenis and he referred to your government as having what he thought was poll-driven contrition. That is deep down you really do believe in Budget 2014.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I haven't seen what George Megalogenis said...

DAVID BEVAN: No, well I'm telling you, we were asking him about the problem that your government faces in terms of the Intergenerational Report you say we must make structural change to our Budget for the present but also for our kids and their kids and that's the story your government is trying to tell us. But his comment was that he believed that a lot of the contrition, a lot of the scraping of the barnacles that we've seen in the last few months has actually been poll-driven contrition. In other words deep down you, Christopher Pyne, and other members of your Cabinet and Tony Abbott and Joe Hockey, deep down you really do believe in Budget 2014.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It sounds like George Megalogenis is looking in the rear view mirror whereas I'm looking through the front of the car and heading forward.

DAVID BEVAN: Well do you believe in the measures of 2014?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We've had the 2014 Budget, it was last May. It's now March…

MARK BUTLER: It's still not through.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: …now March 2015. Well Labor took two-and-a-half years to get some of their measures through the Parliament from the Budget so Mark I'm not sure you're in a strong position to criticise people for how long it takes to get things through the Parliament.

MARK BUTLER: One or two measures, not the core measures.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It's now March…

MARK BUTLER: Core measures of your Budget aren't through.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: …it took you two-and-a-half years to get private health insurance, taking money away from people with private health insurance through the Parliament – two-and-a-half years and when you lost office in 2013, you had $5 billion of savings that you'd announced and not legislated and now you're voting against those in the Senate, so when it comes to credibility and consistency don't look to the Labor Party.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Mark Butler should you take – you seem to be taking genuine pleasure in the fact that you've blocked almost an entire Budget from your view and…

MARK BUTLER: Well, no we haven't blocked the entire Budget. We've let I think $20 billion of savings through because we thought they were sound measures…

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: That's enough is it?

MARK BUTLER: But I tell you we are not apologising at all for cutting – for blocking the cuts to pension indexation, for blocking the Medicare tax, for blocking cuts to family payments and for cutting Christopher Pyne's deregulation…

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Do you regard $20 billion…

MARK BUTLER: And your listeners should not think that there's any contrition, to use George Megalogenis' term, there's any contrition on Christopher Pyne's part at all because he said that he will re-present exactly the same package in July and he'll persist with the bill that seeks to cut Commonwealth funding to universities by 20 per cent. So no one should think there's any contrition on Christopher's part.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: You cut universities by $6.6 billion.

MARK BUTLER: No contrition at all.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: You cut universities by $6.6 billion. How do you explain that?

DAVID BEVAN: I was just hoping to be able to ask a question, if that's okay gentlemen?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It's a free flowing discussion.

DAVID BEVAN: Oh okay I'm with you now. Mark Butler do you regard $20 billion in savings as enough? In other words that's it. There doesn't need to be anymore that's enough for this year. That's all you get.

MARK BUTLER: No, no, we don't because…

DAVID BEVAN: Well, what do you reckon? What do you reckon the figure should be?

MARK BUTLER: Well I'm not going to nominate a figure.

DAVID BEVAN: Oh okay.

MARK BUTLER: Chris Bowen has said, though, that Labor recognises the need to deal with a number of very significant structural challenges in the budget, particularly the downturn in revenue through commodity price reductions which are now taking place in iron ore, but took place under our term of government in the coal market. So there are structural challenges that any government, Labor or Liberal, needs to address, and over the course of the period between now and the election we'll be working on that, and announcing it to the community.

DAVID BEVAN: No but, hang on, hang on.

MARK BUTLER: Be very clear with the community unlike what Tony Abbott did before the last election, which was to promise he'd do nothing and then…

DAVID BEVAN: but hang on, to refer back to the conversation we had with George Megalogenis he was saying look one of the things which distinguished the leaders of previous generations such as Howard and Keating and Hawke is that they could agree on the need, and they could agree on a solution. They didn't agree on everything, it could look like a torrid time in politics in the '90s and the '80s but they could agree on certain fundamental things. What do – if you recognise there is a problem, what are you going to suggest before the next election? Let's not waste our children's time, let's start doing things now. What are you going to agree with Christopher Pyne and Tony Abbott on before the next election?

MARK BUTLER: Well I'm not going to give you a long list of measures that are potentially hypothetical.

DAVID BEVAN: All right, give me one. Give me one.

MARK BUTLER: What I am saying though is that there are a number of measures, for example going to the means testing of family payments that we have agreed with the Government on – just thinking of one of the top off my head – that will achieve substantial savings to the budget, and have passed the Parliament during this term of the Abbott Government. There are a range of things where the Government and the opposition will agree, but there are also some very significant fault lines between the Liberal and the Labor parties about which parts of the Australian community should bear what share of pain in fixing the budget and dealing with some of those structural challenges. There are significant fault lines, and they will continue to be there.

DAVID BEVAN: I'm sorry, did you nominate one?

MARK BUTLER: Well I nominated one off the top of my head, but I don't know what other measures this Government intends to bring forward.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: What was it?

MARK BUTLER: I said means testing of the family payments scheme…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: But that's already been done. What about in the future?

MARK BUTLER: …which has passed the Parliament. We don't know what measures you're going to bring to Parliament. We don't know what measures you're going to bring through…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: [Indistinct].

MARK BUTLER: …in the 2015 Budget.

DAVID BEVAN: No, no, no, so you've already done that one?

MARK BUTLER: We'll look at them, we'll look at them.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It's already been done.

MARK BUTLER: But you're asking me to answer a hypothetical, David.

DAVID BEVAN: No, no, no…

MARK BUTLER: You're asking me to answer a question about measures that the Government hasn't brought through.

DAVID BEVAN: No, no, no, Mark Butler, Mark Butler, I'm not asking you to answer a hypothetical. What I'm asking you is can you come up with anything between – that you can agree on that's new between now and the election, because time's a-wasting.

MARK BUTLER: Well look we will come up – we know that the Government is going to come up with a range of measures in the budget due in about six or eight weeks time, and we don't know what they are, we'll have to look at them, and I imagine there are some that we'll agree with, and some we'll probably violently oppose if they're anything like last year's budget. And as I've said Chris Bowen has said we will be outlining measures between now and the election that also seek to deal with some of these structural challenges in the budget.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: When?

MARK BUTLER: Now again, the Government might agree with some of them, and I suspect they'll oppose others, and the Australian people will have to make a decision at the election next year about which sort of approach to dealing with these budget challenges they think is in Australia's interest.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yeah David, I think you make a very good point, and that is that the inevitability of the next election means that Labor will have to outline where the money's coming from for all their promises. Now so far they're promising everybody everything that they want to hear, that's been quite popular for Bill Shorten. But I've noticed in recent times, particularly the last couple of weeks, that the journalists in the gallery, and outside the gallery in the rest of the country, are asking Bill Shorten where the money's coming from for all these promises, and the truth is – and Mark Butler's failed again this morning to do it – the truth is that Labor doesn't know where the money's coming from, and the public knows it'll be taxes or it’ll be more borrowing.

DAVID BEVAN: Well you won't tell us where the $150 million is – that you've discovered in the last couple of months where that's coming from.

MARK BUTLER: Surprise.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well that'll be in the budget.

MARK BUTLER: Why can't you tell us now?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: The process is that the budget – now come on, Mark, you've had a bad morning, so now you're trying to have a go back at me. You've had a rough start, you thought it was going to be easy because of the higher education reform has been defeated but it hasn't gone as you'd expected it.

DAVID BEVAN: Yeah, yeah, yeah, we've just got...

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Now, in the budget we will reveal those savings because that's the budget process, that's how it works.

DAVID BEVAN: Chris Pyne.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Worked that way under Labor as well.

DAVID BEVAN: Chris Pyne thank you for talking to us this morning.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It's always a pleasure.

DAVID BEVAN: The Education Minister, Liberal MP for Sturt, Leader of the House, and Mark Butler Labor MP for Port Adelaide, he's the opposition's environment and climate change spokesman.

[ends]