ABC 891

SUBJECTS: Carbon tax; Boat people policy

E&OE…………

Matthew Abraham: Mark Butler, as Minister for Ageing have you been ageing with the debate over the carbon tax? Has it taken a few years off your life?

Mark Butler: No, no. I think I’ve been ageing at the natural rate, which at my age is as good as it gets I think. This is an important debate we’re having, important discussions on the facts rather than the fear campaign that’s been dominating Australian politics for the last 12 or 15 months.

David Bevan: Would you like to sing anything at this point?

Butler: I think this week has reminded us of the line between show business and politics; yes it’s a fine one, but it’s an important one. It’s one we should all be conscious of.

Bevan: Has this been passed onto Craig Emerson by his colleagues?

Butler: I don’t know. I have not talked to Craig, but I imagine he’s remembered that line.

Abraham: Just think about it. I know there’s a lot of laughter about “Emmo”. Everyone seems to love “Emmo” in the federal press gallery. In terms of a media strategy, did it work or did it just totally blow out of the water what Julia Gillard is trying to get across and Greg Combet? Because all you had was “Emmo”. There’s now a Hitler Downfall parody of Emmo. It’s quite funny, with the Fuher taking his glasses off and saying “leave the room anyone who’s got any interest in the arts, music or self image.”

Butler: It’s getting a bit passé that Hitler Downfall.

Abraham: It’s a very funny one, this one.

Butler: I think Craig was trying to make an important point and that is that is the Leader of the Opposition has been raging across the country for some time now scaring communities in terms of Whyalla at least “wiped off the map” by carbon pricing.

Abraham: That was one of your union colleagues Wayne Hanson who said that.

Butler: But last time I saw, Wayne wasn’t running for Prime Minister of Australia. It takes on a different colour and a different character when the alternative Prime Minister says it. Craig was trying to make an important point. He and Gary Grey were in Whyalla over the weekend making that point again; that this is not a tax that’s going to change the regime or the nature of Whyalla, which is a thriving economy. It demonstrated that he’s not the best singer in Australian politics, but it was an important message.

Bevan: Christopher Pyne, there’s still another 18 months before we have a federal election. If there isn’t devastation across the nation aren’t you and the Liberals going to look a bit silly?

Christopher Pyne: I don’t think people are expecting devastation. What they’re expecting is cost of living will come under further pressure than it already is because electricity prices will inevitably rise. In fact the Energy Users Association of Australia says South Australia has the highest electricity prices in the world, not just in Australia.

Abraham: So you’re moderating your message already. It’s not devastation. It’s not going to be Armageddon.

Pyne: There will be job losses. The whole point of the carbon tax is to close down industries like aluminium, coal or anything that’s a heavy polluter. So, obviously there’s going to be communities that are going to suffer. There’s going to be jobs lost and we already saw a mine close down in the Australian today that’s been reported on. We’ll see rising prices. We’re already seeing that in the community. Electricity goes into the making of almost every good and service in Australia. That will mean higher prices. So no one is expecting it’s going to be like the end of the world in the way of one of those movies in Hollywood, but everyone has been saying – and it will happen – that people will come under increasing cost of living pressure because of the carbon tax.

Bevan: Do you accept that Whyalla actually has a bright future?

Pyne: I think Whyalla is going to suffer badly because of the carbon tax. When the carbon tax goes up to over $350, which is what it is by 2050. $350 by 2050. The whole purpose of that of course is to make making steel and mining coal much more expensive and uneconomical. Now, Wayne Hansen, as you said he’s the head of the Australian Workers Union in South Australia, said that Whyalla would be wiped off the map, and honestly that is not where the central argument is. The argument is the carbon tax will not reduce emissions. It will hurt the economy. It is an extra tax and more importantly it’s built on a lie because the Prime Minister said it would never happen under her Government.

Bevan: The other great debate this week has been about asylum seekers. Do you both agree with, I think it was Lenore Taylor on Q&A on Monday night said that the Liberal and Labor Parties are just arguing about the extent and form of the inhumanity necessary to deter boat people, Mark Butler?

Butler: Look I don’t agree with that characterisation, I mean yes the Labor Party and the Liberal Party, the two major parties have been spending considerable time, particularly in the last week debating the precise details of offshore processing arrangements. I think we both agree, both accept the advice, particularly of the Immigration Department officials who have been working on this for the Howard Government, the Rudd and Gillard Governments, who say that you need an element of offshore processing to deter people from getting on leaky boats and making the perilous journey...

Bevan: The reason it deters them is that it’s inhumane. We’ve just got to be realistic and say that you need a deterrent and you deter people by being inhumane.

Butler: You don’t deter people through sugar. I mean there needs to be an element of deterrence that causes people to think this might not be a good idea. Evidence and experience shows it’s not a good idea, many people lose their lives. It’s very important that the Government and the alternative government of this country send a very clear message to people who are considering getting on those boats, putting their lives and their children’s’ lives at risk not to do it.

Bevan: Now are you like other Labor MPs, have you come to the position, I’m thinking of Greg Combet and Anthony Albanese they’ve come out and said, look I don’t feel good about this, I don’t feel good about offshore processing but I’ve changed my mind I think it’s a good idea, you also Mark Butler?

Butler: This has been a very difficult debate within the Labor Party for more than ten years…

Bevan: In other words John Howard was right…

Butler: Since Tampa this has been a very difficult debate. I’ve been to all the Caucus meetings and factional caucus meetings at national conferences where weve had very difficult debates about Nauru, about Temporty Protection Visas, about offshore processing as a principle and I think we’ve all sort of come away to understand the balance between offshore processing arrangements that deter people from getting on those boats and other elements of the immigration…

Bevan: So from the self righteousness of opposition to the reality of government?

Butler: Well I think we’ve all learnt from the experience of the way in which the people smugglers have changed their business models over the course of the last ten or twelve years. It’s a bit like tax lawyers if you like, as the law changes you have to find away around that and you have to adapt to that as a government.

Abraham: Chris Pyne you have quite frankly rejected a very kind invitation from Steve Georganas the Member for Hindmarsh to attend the cross party working group on refugees, you described as people sitting around, faffing about, hand ringing and achieving nothing.

Pyne: That’s exactly right I mean the truth is…

Abraham: Well it’s hardly true if people are trying to come together to put their heads together a cooperative approach.

Pyne: This conceitedly called cross party group on refugees is simply a smokescreen for Labor MPs to try and pretend that they want to do something about border protection when the answer to solving the border protection policy is absolutely clear. In August, 2008 Labor put the sugar back on the table, which is permanent residency. Unless Labor wants to reintroduce Temporary Protection Visas and take the sugar off the table, the people smugglers will continue to have a product to sell, which is permanent residency in Australia. So all this, as I have described faffing about with so called cross party working groups on refugees which does not exist, there is no formal cross party committee at all, it is simply an attempt to try and pretend their doing something when the answer is already available, it is to bring back Temporary Protection Visas, that will stop the boats as it did before Labor removed it before August, 2008.

Bevan: Christopher Pyne, Mark Butler thank for coming in we’re always pressed for time, but we appreciate you coming in to the studio.

ENDS