ABC 891

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
Interview – ABC 891 Adelaide with Matthew Abraham, David Bevan and Nick Champion
Wednesday 8 April 2015

SUBJECTS: Newspoll; Opposition policy; Superannuation; Higher education reforms; Penalty rates.

DAVID BEVAN: Christopher Pyne joins us every Wednesday morning, he's Education Minister, Leader of the Government in the House and a Liberal MP for the federal seat of Sturt, good morning Christopher Pyne.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning, David.

DAVID BEVAN: And normally we would have Mark Butler in our studio, but he has been given extra duties and I think part of the reason is that most of the federal Labor frontbench is off having babies and so it is, you know, all hands to the pump, those who are left. And he has gone off to Tasmania and Nick Champion, has kindly agreed to fill in for him. Labor MP for Wakefield, in our studio. Good morning Nick Champion.

NICK CHAMPION: Good morning.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning Nick.

NICK CHAMPION: Good morning Chris.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: You must have been champing at the bit to get on this show.

Matthew Abraham: He loves it.

NICK CHAMPION: Here we go.

Matthew Abraham: Chris Pyne, is the Federal Coalition worried about the standing of the Prime Minister, or has it given any thought about why the Prime Minister, Tony Abbott is so deeply, deeply unpopular in South Australia according to the latest Newspoll, it looks at three months’ worth of figures, and it shows that he is the most unpopular Prime Minister since 1996, more unpopular than Julia Gillard. Why so?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: With the obvious qualification that we politicians and journalists pay no attention to polls at all, with that obvious qualification I would say that the three months of the Newspoll was over one of the most difficult periods of the Government – December, January and February – and therefore has tracked Tony Abbott and the Government at a point where we were at a very low ebb.

Matthew Abraham: That doesn’t explain what’s going on in South Australia, you could extrapolate that to every state but South Australia is a basket case, if you look at the Newspoll that you say you don’t look at, is a basket case for the Coalition and particularly for the Prime Minister, why would it be particularly so in South Australia?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, Victoria is not very different and Western Australia has come back a long way from the heady highs of the 2013 election but I don’t think you can look at a three month poll taken at the worst time for the Government and say that reflects people’s current thinking. My sense is that the Government is very much back on track, since late January, since the leadership spill we are doing the things that the public want us to do, get on with, like addressing issues around ice, food labelling, the grocery code of conduct, the acquisition of land by foreign purchasers, we are getting on with the job, the mess that Labor left us…

Matthew Abraham: So ice is in there now?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well ice is there this morning, in fact we announced this morning that there would be a national taskforce to tackle the scourge of ice which is annoying and getting more out of control.

Matthew Abraham: Is that a lot more popular for a government than addressing the scourge of the federal budget?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well obviously we have to deal with the problems that Labor left us in the budget, deficits rising to $130 billion of accumulated deficits, debt rising to $667 billion, Labor said that the deficit when they left office was $18.5 billion, it turned out to be $48.5 billion. They have blocked $28 billion worth of savings in the Senate, making our lives as difficult as person, they’re running a protection racket for their own policies from when they were in Government and obviously they are challenges but we are getting on with them as well as the other things that the public elected us to fix.

DAVID BEVAN: Nick Champion, Labor MP for Wakefield, are people getting ready with baseball bats for the coalition at the next election, is it looking like it is going to be a wasteland indeed somebody like Christopher Pyne could be in doubt in his seat?

NICK CHAMPION: Well certainly I was out doing shopping centre stalls last week in places like Munno Para and Elizabeth Park and I can tell you that the Newspoll I think is pretty optimistic for the Government given the feedback I had…

DAVID BEVAN: Munno Parra would be tiger territory for the Libs?

NICK CHAMPION: Well indeed but you can certainly feel that there’s a mood against the Federal Government because of cars, the decision around the car industry, because of submarines and because of what was a very unfair budget targeted at working and middle class people. You only have to look at the their four versions of the GP tax or any of these other things, to know that they just got it wrong. They trashed consumer confidence and now they’re reaping the whirlwind.

DAVID BEVAN: Well, Tony Abbott and Joe Hockey keep handing Jay Weatherill the bullets, but can you thank Jay Weatherill and his advertising campaign for firing them?

NICK CHAMPION: Well I don’t think it’s that, the Government’s standing is terrible everywhere, even in Western Australia which was previously quite a difficult territory for the Labor Party, so what we’re seeing is a reaction across the country to a very, very unfair budget.

Matthew Abraham: This was meant to be Bill Shorten’s year of the big idea. We are in April.

NICK CHAMPION: Indeed.

Matthew Abraham: When are we going to see some big ideas? Unless we have missed them, if you can rattle off a few?

NICK CHAMPION: Well I can actually. We have announced a policy on taxing multinationals. On Australia Day, Bill came out and spoke about an Australian republic and a pathway to that and now it is not the Leader of the Opposition’s fault that if he announces a policy on Australia Day and the very next day the Prime Minister steals all the headlines by knighting Prince Phillip. I mean it is very difficult to compete with this Government.

Matthew Abraham: It is hardly earth shattering that a Labor leader would want a policy to move Australia toward a republic, is it?

NICK CHAMPION: Well, this was an important direction for the country. It is something that we didn’t get to in the last Government.

Matthew Abraham: So that is the big idea, we have a republic debate?

NICK CHAMPION: A republic is a big idea, he announced a policy about family violence, not so long ago. So we are starting to see…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Like anyone is against it.

NICK CHAMPION: Yes, just hang on Chris, don’t interrupt. So what we are starting to see is a slow and steady measured roll out of policy.

Matthew Abraham: You are announcing policies, but we are not talking Hawke/Keating here, are we? We are not talking…

NICK CHAMPION: Well my sense is what the public wants from us, even though I think journalists are sort of gagging for a lot of policy content, I think what I get back the feedback I get from my constituents is that they want stability and they want measured policies to be announced in a measured way and that’s a reflection against the Government I guess is you know they have got a new idea every second.

DAVID BEVAN: I tell you what a lot of them are worried about is that both sides won’t be able to keep their hands out of their superannuation. Now Nick Champion, I had a chat talking to Ian Henschke a week or two again and he is convinced that both sides are going to go for superannuation, he said the first step will be they will ban lump sum payments so you will only be able to take an annuity and I thought to myself, hang on, is that so unreasonable? Because the whole idea of behind superannuation was to have individuals take care of their own retirement. And if you take it is an annuity you will not be relying on the government, if you take it as a lump sum you pay off the house or you I don’t know go on a trip or whatever, and then you have done your dough and fall back on your pension, you will fall back on the taxpayer, is it so unreasonable for a government, Labor or Liberal, to consider banning or closing down or diluting lump sum payments and forcing people to take annuity?

NICK CHAMPION: Well look as a general principle I think annuities are better. I have seen a lot of people take the lump sum and invest it in things that you know didn’t have the returns that they were expecting. So…

DAVID BEVAN: But should the government intervene and require people?

NICK CHAMPION: Well I guess what we need to do is to be considered in superannuation. I think sort of banning lump sums, and this is outside my area, would be a little harsh. But look, what we would do…

DAVID BEVAN: What about controlling the lump sums?

NICK CHAMPION: Well I guess, with superannuation what you want to do is make sure people provide for their own retirement and provide a big pool of national savings, and that is the critical thing we want to do. What Labor did in government is announced a pathway up to 12 per cent and we took the tax off low income, off working people. The first thing this government did is put this tax back on so what we have got is a government that wants to tax the poorer and let the rich off the hook.

Matthew Abraham: Chris Pyne?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well we have had a very long go from Nick Champion and because it was his first time I didn’t interrupt him but so far the three big ideas from Bill Shorten, is that we’re against domestic violence, well I think we’re all against that, we want multinationals to pay their share of tax, well who could disagree with that, and that Bill Shorten wants a republic, well last time I looked a republic wasn’t Bill Shorten’s idea. Is the next idea that he introduced the internet? I mean the reality is that Bill Shorten has no ideas and no plan for Australia’s future beyond motherhood statements that we can all support. And that is why he is dropping in the polls and that is why Labor is not doing better in the polls.

Matthew Abraham: These are the polls that you don’t comment on?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well you raised the polls…

Matthew Abraham: Yeah, yeah I appreciate that.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: …and I am just pointing out that Bill Shorten is a break on a Labor support because when they look behind the curtain they see with Bill Shorten that there’s nothing there. He is the hollow man of Australian politics and that is why he is not doing extraordinary well in the polls. In terms of superannuation, it is Bill Shorten’s other idea that superannuation is actually a national asset. He has referred to it as, to quote him, a national asset. Actually it is not a national asset, it is the asset of the superannuants who have put aside income while they are working so they could provide themselves when they are retired. Now the words national asset should strike fears in the heart of every self-refunded retiree because what it means is that Nick Champion and Bill Shorten think that they can get their hands on their money and use it for the purposes that they want.

Matthew Abraham: Do you feel though that there are unnecessarily generous tax concessions for wealthy superannuants?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well if we were to look at any type of change to superannuation they would have to be prospective for future changes to contributions to super. They couldn’t possibly affect the savings of current superannuates who have planned for their future based on the tax arrangements at the time. Now what Labor…

DAVID BEVAN: Hang on that is what you have said about students, oh these changes to HECS debt wouldn’t affect people who are currently enrolled.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: But they don’t.

DAVID BEVAN: Yeah, you back downed on that.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: That’s not right, that was never the case. Current students were never facing the increases if there are to be increased. So factually, David, I don’t want to correct but you are actually wrong they were never to apply to current students.

DAVID BEVAN: I think we have had that argument, Chris Pyne, and it turned out…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, they were to apply since the announcement…

DAVID BEVAN: Yeah.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: But students who enrolled before last year’s budget based on the arrangements at the time were to be grandfathered but students who enrolled after the budget of course would attract the new arrangements.

DAVID BEVAN: But only after there was a public outcry?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No. that was the policy from the beginning. Sorry, you’re wrong.

DAVID BEVAN: That is not my memory of the conversation we had.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: You’re wrong.

DAVID BEVAN: Okay. We’ll move on.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: He doesn’t want to correct you but you’re wrong.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I mean it is important to be factually correct. You might be referring to the ten year government bond rate which was the original proposal but is now back to the consumer price index.

DAVID BEVAN: Ahh. Yes.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Possibly, that’s where the confusion has arisen.

DAVID BEVAN: Yes, because you said the ten year government bond rate would apply to people who had enrolled previously, as there course moves on. You back downed on that.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We said it would apply to the debts as they are now. I understand the confusion.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Chris Pyne, are you losing your touch? You are actually helping David out there!

DAVID BEVAN: Yeah, thank you.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We are all friends here.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: No, no. I think you are losing your edge.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We are all friends here.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: I’m worried about you, are you okay?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I’m mellowing in my old age.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: You’re mellowing! Alright, Robert’s called from Unley, Hello Robert.

CALLER ROBERT: Yeah, hi. Good morning, I just wanted to make a point about the superannuation savings. The problem there is it is not savings it is purely a tax on employers. And staff members do not really value what is employers put in, they just see it as we have got to pay it and we couldn’t care less, pay increases. Let’s get back to Keating, what he did, people had half their salary increases in super and half in what they received. I think it has just got to change.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Nick Champion, why are you shaking your head, for those who can’t see?

NICK CHAMPION: Well the origins of it – he said it is a tax on employers, with all due respect, it is not. What it is the outcome of is the national wage agreement where we look at the worker’s forgoed pay rise and in exchange got superannuation and that is the way it was built up from 1983 onwards. Very important Labor reform.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Okay, Kevin from Hallett Cove, hello Kevin.

CALLER KEVIN: Yes I just want to comment on Labor releasing policy, so far out from an election. I don’t think it is their place to have to do that because it is never been done by an opposition so far out from an election and if they did…

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Well it has been.

CALLER KEVIN: Well, once. Not the Liberal Government.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Well John Hewson…

CALLER KEVIN: Oh yeah, that far back but Liberals didn’t do it last time. Tony Abbott didn’t.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Aren’t people harking back to a level of cooperation between the two parties?

CALLER KEVIN: And that’s fine to have cooperation but not on bad policies.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: But in the absence of cooperation then it is reasonable to say, what is your alternative?

CALLER KEVIN: And if they bring out good policies and they are popular, the Liberal Government can just steal them from them?

NICK CHAMPION: We don’t want that.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: It does happen. Chris Pyne, on penalty rates, is the Coalition Government warming or very keen on the idea of doing away with penalty rates in key industries?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We’ve made it absolutely clear that penalty rates are a matter for the Fair Work Commission, they determine those and we are quite happy for the Fair Work Commission to continue to do their job. Brendan O’Connor in Cairns yesterday indicated that penalty rates were on the table.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: He’s a Labor frontbencher.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: He’s the Labor frontbencher responsible for employment, Brendan O’Connor from Victoria.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: You had to go to the Cairns Post to find that one?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well Cairns Post is just as good as any newspaper in Australia, I’m surprised to hear you say that in that tone.I’ve always been an avid reader of the Cairns Post …

NICK CHAMPION: Scouring national papers.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: The crosswords.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Why are you being…What’s this air of superiority I am hearing from Nick Champion over the Cairns Post? What’s wrong with people ein Cairns, they are just as good as anybody else?

NICK CHAMPION: Should be reading the Bunyip out at Gawler, should be reading the Bunyip, mate.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: And Brendan O’Connor said that penalty rates were on the table as far as Labor was concerned …

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: And are they on the table as far as the Liberal Party is concerned?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We’ve said the Fair Work Commission will do that job and continue to do that job and they will decide the balance between making sure that the small business owner can keep their doors open and still make a profit while paying employees a fair wage for a fair day’s work.

DAVID BEVAN: Nick Champion, just to finish off at ten to nine at the moment, we are crossing down to some veterans who have been camping out, doing it rough on the steps of Parliament House to protest over the closure of the Repat, but just finally - do you think there is room to move, Nick Champion, on the issue of penalty rates?

NICK CHAMPION: Well, what we don’t want to go back to is the world of Work Choices …

DAVID BEVAN: No, no but do you think there is room to move?

NICK CHAMPION: …where people lost their penalty rates for very small increases… there’s always room to have Enterprise Bargaining Agreements where the workers get a fair pay rise and those penalty rates are paid out but they have to be done fairly and it has to be done by consent … has to be done with a vote of the employees.

MATTHEW ABRAHAM: Nick Champion, thank you, Labor MP for the seat of Wakefield in the northern suburbs, and Chris Pyne he is Liberal MP for the federal seat of Sturt. He’s also Education Minister, thank you to both of you.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Pleasure.

NICK CHAMPION: Cheers.

[ends]