ABC 891

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
Interview - ABC 891 Adelaide with Matthew Abraham, David Bevan and Mark Butler.
Wednesday 3 June 2015

SUBJECTS: Citizenshp; Labor chaos; Audit of Schools.

COMPERE: ... climate change spokesman and Christopher Pyne, Liberal MP for Sturt and Education Minister, Leader of the House every Wednesday, good morning Mark Butler.

MARK BUTLER: Good morning gentlemen.

COMPERE: And good morning Christopher Pyne.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning.

COMPERE: Christopher Pyne what's a ‘come to Jesus’ moment?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I think it's when you have a very frank discussion and exchange where people say what they really believe and afterwards everyone agrees to move on for the greater good.

COMPERE: And have you had one?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Oh, I think we all have constant ‘come to Jesus’ moments in our lives don't we?

COMPERE: No I meant in Can- we're not talking about your first communion, we're not asking if you've found the Lord, we're talking about the Cabinet discussion that was comprehensively leaked right down to almost a running transcript where you and others apparently arced up over Prime Minister Tony Abbott's plan to revoke sole citizenship for people who are deliberately involving themselves in terrorism.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I've had all the sacraments bar two Matthew, can you guess which ones they are?

COMPERE: Well you're the - anointing of the sick and the holy orders, your last and…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Correct. Very good. Well done. You see, you've still got it. Now, in terms of your question, well obviously we have a policy to strip the citizenship of dual citizens who are fighting with terrorist organisations overseas and we've had legislation that will achieve that and we are yet to hear Labor's view on that issue. In terms of the second which is citizenship - stripping the citizenship of Australians who only have Australian citizenship, we have a discussion paper, a public paper which is going to be the purpose of which will be a discussion, a conversation around that issue. Phillip Ruddock and Concetta Fierravanti-Wells will conduct that conversation…

COMPERE: But was this sprung on you in Cabinet and did you and Julie Bishop and other like-minded civil libertarians have to say to the Prime Minister no way can you just spring this on us?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, I mean given that we've just had a discussion this week about how Cabinet shouldn't be leaking it would be unusual for me to now give chapter and verse on the discussions we had in Cabinet. So obviously I won't talk about what's gone in Cabinet. The policy is that there'll be a discussion paper which will form the basis of a conversation around the second issue. In terms of the first issue, we are intending to strip the citizenship of dual citizens who fight with terrorist organisations because we take national security very seriously and I'd be fascinated to hear what Labor's policy is with respect to that because they've been very silent on it.

COMPERE: Paul thinks a come to Jesus moment was if you do this, you'll see Jesus sooner than you thought you would.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Quite possibly.

COMPERE: Is that what the Prime Minister might have meant?

COMPERE: Chris Pyne though, do you support the Prime Minister's support for depriving sole citizens, not dual citizens, but people who only have one citizenship making them stateless because they have involved themselves in terrorism?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I think what the Prime Minister has said is we need to look at what different countries are doing. Canada recently, for example, gave themselves the power to strip sole Canadian citizens of their citizenship if they'd been convicted of certain crimes...

COMPERE: Yeah do you think it's a good idea?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: … The UK has gone further than that and allowed their minister the power to strip a UK citizen of their citizenship but it's yet to be used.

COMPERE: Yeah so Matthew's question was what do you think?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I'm not going to pre-empt the discussion that's going to be happen- that will be had throughout the community by Phillip Ruddock and Concetta Fierravanti-Wells; it would be wrong of me to do that.

COMPERE: You just like using her name because you like pronouncing Fierravanti properly.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It's a lovely name Concetta Fierravanti-Wells.

[Cross-talk]

COMPERE: Mark Butler can you answer a question?

MARK BUTLER: What is a ‘come to Jesus’ moment?

COMPERE: No, no.

MARK BUTLER: I think the connections to Google from Canberra crashed yesterday because everyone had to Google it, I certainly had to.

COMPERE: Have you had any of the sacraments Mark?

MARK BUTLER: I've not had any of the sacraments, I was impressed by that conversation between you two Matthew but…

COMPERE: You're an atheist…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Not too late to make that concession.

COMPERE: We can send you the paperwork.

COMPERE: Mark Butler you're an atheist aren't you?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I can come over and baptise you right now if you want.

COMPERE: No, no, no, no, no Mark Butler you're an atheist.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Glass of water is all I need.

COMPERE: Can we just settle… You're an atheist aren't you?

MARK BUTLER: I assume Tony Abbott meant this in a figurative sense rather than a literal sense but whichever meaning he gave to it, it hasn't lasted very long because we're looking at stories on the wire now about further Cabinet leaks. About a division between Andrew Robb and other Cabinet members, potentially Joe Hockey because he back-flipped about Andrew Robb's proposal to open up the northern air routes to foreign airlines, so the ‘come to Jesus’ moment didn't last very long, we've got divisions in Cabinet already on the wires this morning.

COMPERE: We're talking about divisions. Your dirty laundry's going to be played out again on ABC TV.

MARK BUTLER: So it would appear.

COMPERE: Let's have a little bit. Some would see this as the gift that keeps on giving, Julia Gillard versus Kevin Rudd, and it will be in The Killing Season, which will be a killer of an ABC doco. This is Julia Gillard.

[Excerpt]

JULIA GILLARD: Kevin was always very anxious to strut his stuff in Question Time. If tactics hadn't gone his way, if I'd taken a view about something else forming the issue of the day, and after the tactics meeting broke up he very physically stepped into my space and it was quite a bullying encounter. It was a menacing, angry performance.

[End of excerpt]

COMPERE: Okay so that's Julia Gillard talking about Kevin Rudd. This is Kevin Rudd responding.

[Excerpt]

KEVIN RUDD: That is utterly false. Utterly, utterly false.

REPORTER: Do you recall any angry exchanges with her?

KEVIN RUDD: Never. Never with Julia. Including on the night that she marches into the office to announce the coup, I said to her repeatedly “but Julia, you're a good person, why are you doing this?”

[End of excerpt]

COMPERE: It's scary when he's being nice! Mark Butler, Mark Butler, how can your opposition continue when you see again the bitterness and bile that is still running through your veins?

MARK BUTLER: Well it's not still running through our veins I think is the point. This is an historical documentary that now appears to be a bit of a tradition in Australia that after the end of a government, particularly the ABC, does a long-form documentary where everyone pours over the entrails of what happened in previous years. It happened at the end of the Hawke and Keating governments, it happened at the end of the Howard Government, and it's going to happen over the next few weeks for our time in government. But I don't intend to participate in a commentary about what is essentially a commentary about Labor's past.

COMPERE: But could you argue that the Coalition's actually got it right this time, because when there were leadership troubles Tony Abbot said what all leaders say, and that is just hold your nerve, hold your nerve, and things will come good. Well this time around they actually did, and things have come good.

MARK BUTLER: Well, we've got about four or five stories in the paper this morning about divisions within this government. We've had two Cabinet leaks, spectacular Cabinet leaks, including about national security matters, over recent days. We've got the South Australian Senator Bernardi calling for the resignation of three front benchers. We've got reports of division in the party room yesterday …

COMPERE: Sure.

MARK BUTLER: … on tax breaks for high-income super. So, it's hardly a government travelling well.

COMPERE: Do you- would you have any evidence that would support Julia Gillard's claim that Mr Rudd was physically intimidating towards her, describing a bullying encounter in which he acted in a menacing and angry way? Have you ever seen any evidence of that from Kevin Rudd? And he, quite clearly denies it, but have you seen any evidence of that?

MARK BUTLER: This is- reading the reports of the series this morning in the paper is the first I've heard of it, and Julia's- and first I heard of it was, in a direct sense, was when you just played the clips then. And Julia's obviously put a position and Kevin's put a contrary position. I have no understanding or evidence about what actually happened.

COMPERE: Thanks for all of the callers ringing in to say there's just been an accident at the corner of Beulah and Fullarton, it's a car V a motorbike. Fullarton Road is completely blocked, and traffic from Payneham Road into Fullarton Road towards the city is also completely blocked. So if you're stuck in traffic, that's the reason. If you are heading towards there and you can make a turn, probably a good idea to turn now because it's a real mess.

COMPERE: Chris Pyne, Mark Butler's saying the divisions are on your side, and what we're seeing on the front page of The Oz and other papers in this documentary will be ancient history.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well what we're seeing on Labor's side is the continuing chaotic and dysfunctional nature of the modern Labor Party, because they are still wrent between whether they want to be the party of the worker or the party of the inner-city green latte-drinking voter. And this is why they are out of government nationally, why when they were in government they didn't know what their personality as a government was, and they're still riven by these divisions. We have Tanya Plibersek [indistinct] for example …

COMPERE: [Interrupts] As is your side.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well not really no …

COMPERE: Really?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: … we're getting on with the job. I mean the Budget's going very well, we are focusing on small business and families out of the Budget, we are delivering the free trade agreements, getting on with the program of reforming the national curriculum, training teachers the way that we think they should be trained. Whereas Labor, of course, is still talking about whether Tanya Plibersek should be leader, Anthony Albanese I noticed last night and this morning in the media is denying that he's available when everyone believes that he is. Bill Shorten has a lot of problems, and the public is starting to see them.

COMPERE: Alright. Well let's move onto policy issues. You've asked for an audit regarding some Islamic schools; can you explain what the Commonwealth audit of these schools will involve - because of course we've got one quite controversial school here at Croydon now. Christopher Pyne, as Federal Education Minister, can you explain what's happening?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yes, one needs to be careful around this issue of course because it involves the reputation of six particular colleges in Australia under the rubric of AFIC, which is the Australian Federation of Islamic Colleges. I have asked my department to audit the six colleges after a six month investigation into the financial management of those six colleges. There've been no conclusions drawn as a result of the audit at this stage but we want to ensure that the federal funds that are supporting students at those schools are being used appropriately. That is a difference process…

COMPERE: What about the order you did in 2013 of the Bellfield College, a Sydney Muslim school.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I'm afraid you've taken me by surprise with that question and I'd need to get advice about that.

COMPERE: Unless there's a wrong date on the story - and that is always possible.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Look the sto…I have some recollection of that. It was in 2013 it would have been possibly done under Peter Garrett and might have reported to me at the end of that year because of course I became the minister in September 2013. Peter Garrett might well have been the minister responsible for it.

COMPERE: Well, this is a story from The Australian dated 18 October 2013, an urgent financial audit of Sydney Muslim school Bellfield College has been ordered by Federal Education Minister Christopher Pyne in the wake of allegations senior school officials faked millions in building invoices for work never done at the school.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, as I said I wasn't prepared for that question. I'm happy to get an answer on that and I'll report back to you next Wednesday.

COMPERE: But is this inquiry just about the financial management or are there also concerns about what the kids are being taught in terms of a hard line Islamic approach?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well the audit will focus on the financial management of the six colleges, in the process of course it also wants to ensure that the Commonwealth is comfortable with the way the school is operating in all its facets. This is a different process to the state licensing of schools which Susan Close is responsible for. So the process of it, Susan Close says this school is a licensed school, the Federal Government then funds that school on that basis, but we also can have our own audit process to ensure that we are happy with the way funds are being spent.

COMPERE: And Mark Butler are you happy with it?

MARK BUTLER: Well as I understand it the federal and the state governments are working in lockstep on these matters. There's obviously been a lot of public disquiet about the Islamic college in Croydon, which is a school in my electorate and a school I've had very good relations with over the years that I've been the local member there over the seven or eight years, and I think it's been very distressing for everyone to have these questions asked about governance at the school and I certainly hope that the authority that runs the school is able to start to deal with greater community confidence in [indistinct]…

COMPERE: [Interrupts] Do you have concerns about the way that school's been run?

MARK BUTLER: Well I think there are important questions that are being asked. I don't have any particular evidence that's not on the public record that hasn't been covered in the media. I think it's important that the authority running this school start to allay the concerns that a range of parents and other members of the community have around governance but…

COMPERE: [Interrupts] What about Susan Close's idea for a code of conduct?

MARK BUTLER: Well if I could just finish. The question about the finances of this school that have been raised by the Commonwealth Government for a number of the schools run by the authority around Australia I think is an important question again. I don't have any particular evidence about this but as I understand it the Commonwealth and the South Australian Government are working in lockstep on that.

COMPERE: Alright, Christopher Pyne Education Minister, just finally, we've only got a minute because we want to talk to Tony Piccolo about the new changes to parole for serious offenders. As Federal Education Minister, what do you think of Susan Close's idea of having a code of conduct to govern what schools are teaching kids in terms of ethics or religion, to make sure that schools are reflecting mainstream, I think secular, values?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I don't oppose it because it's hard to oppose essentially motherhood statements. I've seen the code of conduct. You know my view is there are much more deep seated problems in the South Australian education system than whether there should be posters around the school with ten points that are a code of conduct. Obviously we're seeing those stories played out in the newspapers, on the radio and on the television in Adelaide far too often and I think one needs to focus on the real issues, the meat of the story rather than these kinds of window dressing measures. But, I mean, I wouldn't oppose it because how could you, but I don't think it actually solves the problems.

COMPERE: And Joe of Semaphore is tired of latte drinkers being denigrated by Chris Pyne.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I'm a short black drinker I'm afraid. All that milk seems to get in the way of the coffee I think.

COMPERE: Short black drinker who's found Jesus. Thank you Christopher Pyne. Mark Butler, Labor MP for Port Adelaide, thank you for your time.

MARK BUTLER: Thanks gentlemen.

[ends]