6PR Perth

E&OE TRANSCRIPT 6PR Perth with Paul Murray Monday 13 October 2014 PAUL MURRAY:     Back in 2008, I think it was, Julia Gillard, as the Federal Education Minister in the Rudd government, brought in a national curriculum for our junior schools. There was a draft curriculum I think that came in 2008, which was on English, maths, science and history. It developed from there. When the Abbott government came in, a review of that was set up; it was to be done by Queensland University professor Ken Wiltshire. And also Kevin Donnelly, who’s an education consultant and a senior research fellow at the Australian Catholic University, who I speak to from time to time on my programs as well, they handed that – their report in to Christopher Pyne, the Education Minister, just yesterday. As you might expect, it had a fair old crack at the way the national curriculum has been rolled out. They’re recommending that subjects be removed from the curriculum; that certainly in the first three years, there’s a concentration on learning the three R’s. The media coverage of this has talked about a back-to-basics approach to education being recommended. Christopher Pyne, the Education Minister, joins us now. Afternoon Christopher. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Good afternoon Paul. PAUL MURRAY:     Did you get the report you wanted? Is it useful to you? CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     It’s a very good report. It’s well-researched. Kevin and Ken took 1600 submissions; spoke to 72 different organisations around Australia; all the State and Territory governments and the Australian Curriculum Reporting Authority made submissions. So it’s a very thorough report, and I think it’ll be a very good basis for working with the states and territories on renewing the national curriculum, which has been unchanged for five years. And this gives us the chance to refresh it, improve it, and rebalance it. Which I think most parents will be pleased about. PAUL MURRAY:     Yeah. That’s the politics from here on, isn’t it? Because it is a state and territory responsibility, even though you called for this report. Does it bear on them in any way in all? CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, it certainly doesn’t criticise the states and territories. The states and territories run the schools, and therefore we have to work with them. The Australian Curriculum Authority is a joint institution paid for and run by the Commonwealth and the states and territories. I’ve described myself today as being prepared to be Captain Cooperative in order to get the states and territories on side. But the recommendations in this review are common sense. They’ll improve the outcomes of students. They’ll have the themes matching the content of the curriculum, rather than the content trying to be squeezed into the theme. They will unclutter primary school curriculum, so that primary school kids can focus on history, English, maths, and science, rather than trying to do too much in the first six years. And I think it’ll be a big improvement. I really want the states and territories to work with me to improve it rather than go into their corners and say that they’re not going to be part of this reform. PAUL MURRAY:     Christopher, we had a terrible experience here in WA with what was known as outcomes-based education. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Yes you did. PAUL MURRAY:     Which set a lot of kids back and it had a pretty scarring effect on everyone who had anything to deal with it. And it was a very PC approach to education. From what I’m reading about what your report has uncovered here, the suggestion that maybe a similar sort of thing has crept into the national curriculum in terms of this overriding belief that there need to be curriculum themes? Across all different parts of the curriculum? CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, nothing will ever be as bad as the O-Levels that dominated in Western Australia for a short time; but fortunately you have recovered and bounced back. And Western Australia is at the top of the ladder in terms of outcomes under NAPLAN, and so you should be very proud of the fact that you’ve managed to recover so quickly. The report has said that the themes of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture, Australia’s place in Asia, and sustainability are all of themselves important. But they shouldn’t be dominating the content of the curriculum, and that the attempt to try and make the content match the themes is unnecessary. For example, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander history and culture should be a unit in history. But trying to make maths match that theme is not going to work. Similarly, maths doesn’t fit with Australia’s place in Asia. So I think this is a useful development, five years after the curriculum began. So that we can actually improve what’s there, not throw the baby out with the bathwater, that certainly isn’t being suggested. But just use the basis of what’s there, and improve on that in the future. PAUL MURRAY:     That does have a whiff of political correctness about it. I think, I’ve seen some of your comments reported today whereby you say it’s hard to have Australia’s place in Asia squeezed into the mathematics curriculum. And I think many parents would ask, well, why is my child being subjected to that? CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Yes, well, that has been the national curriculum for the last few years. And so I do think that’s one of the recommendations in the review, to make the themes match the content, rather than the content match the themes. That most people would agree with and most Education Ministers will agree with. PAUL MURRAY:     Yup. But also the report suggesting that there should be a focus on teaching phonics, which is another big debate here in Western Australia; we went away from that for quite a while as well. And even though the Department here in WA says its policy is to teach phonics, we know that there are many schools where it’s not taught? CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, a lot of teachers already use phonics in primary school for the teaching of literacy. And of course the Commonwealth Government’s suggestion that people should be using explicit and direct instruction in remote schools is basically phonics-based. A lot of very good teachers do use phonics. Some teachers use phonics and try and hide the fact, because in some jurisdictions in Australia it’s not ideologically correct to use it. What this review indicates is that phonics should be the basis of learning to read. That you can’t learn, unless you can read. And therefore children should not be allowed to move forward, if you like, until they have the basic skills. And that’s why it says that from reception to year six, primary schools should focus on giving kids the schools and the knowledge that they need in the basic areas before they move on to other subjects. PAUL MURRAY:     What we see is a whole lot of teachers were taught how to teach the whole word approach, rather than the phonics approach, and they actually don’t know to teach phonics. And that’s an issue that has not been attended to here. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     It is an issue. And it’s one of the things in the review that I think is important. You can’t blame teachers for not teaching grammar when they were not taught grammar themselves. And what we want to do with our teacher education review in universities, which I’ll also receive before Christmas, is train teachers at university in practical teaching methods, and grammar, and of course phonics-based learning. And those who are already out in the classroom, give them the professional development that they want, and require, in order to be able to focus on ensuring the best outcomes for our students. PAUL MURRAY:     Let’s finish up on the curliest part. The report criticised a lack of emphasis on morals, values, and spirituality. What did you make of that? CHRISTOPHER PYNE:     Well, most schools that I go into, and I have been going to schools as the Education Minister for now about seven years. They all are not valueless, they’re not amoral. They’re all talking about values, and morality, and how to treat each other. And the spirituality of the people within the school. So I don’t think that’s a very controversial recommendation. And I think most schools would say that’s what we’re doing now. It might not be organised religion, particularly in public schools, but in the non-government school sector in many cases it will be. The review also says that sex education should be taught in schools. Because it’s the most neutral place to talk about drugs and sex, where if you try and talk about it in families and amongst friends, you get a very biased view or no view at all. And so it’s not a document that’s saying, here’s a strong Christian conservative values document.  This is a document that says this is what we need to do to get the best outcome for our students. Even to the extent of using schools as a neutral place to talk about sex and drugs. PAUL MURRAY:     Yep. Great to talk you, thanks a lot Christopher. CHRISTOPHER PYNE:      Thanks Paul. [ends]