612 ABC

E&OE TRANSCRIPT

Interview - 612 ABC Brisbane Mornings with Steve Austin

Friday 29 May 2015

SUBJECT: Federal Education Council.

STEVE AUSTIN: Well as I go to air this morning, the state government will use the National Education Council Meeting today to fight what they say are proposed federal funding cuts to education. The Queensland Minister for Education, Kate Jones, says that we've lost $6 billion in education funding and she wants it back. The Federal Education Minister, Christopher Pyne, sees it differently. And as he goes into that meeting right about now he will run a phalanx of demonstrators saying we want more money. I asked Christopher Pyne just a short moment ago what he actually wanted for the schools of Queensland.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I want better outcomes for the students. I want a focus on the things that I know will deliver those better outcomes, things like a stronger national curriculum, better teacher quality, more parental engagement, more school autonomy. The Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) said that in Australia, of all OECD countries, the classroom to which a student is allocated in eight out of 10 reasons, will determine whether a child succeeds. In other words, teacher quality is the number one issue in Australia. So I'm focusing on reforming initial teacher training at uni, on getting the national curriculum right, and the states are working well on that, and obviously we're trying to expand the number of independent public schools and Queensland is on board with that as well.

STEVE AUSTIN: How are you working with Kate Jones, the new Education Minister here, to achieve that? You're meeting her this morning.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yes I find Kate Jones very easy to deal with. I think she has a similar vision for Queensland students. She wants to see better outcomes for the students, and I don't think she's as hidebound as some of the state and territory ministers by what the unions or the Teachers Federation tell her. I think she has her own views about what's good for Queensland students, and she's prepared to stand up for them.

STEVE AUSTIN: She says that you've cut $6 billion from her education budget, I think that's over the forward estimates, and that she says as a result of this cut she is going to have to ask schools to cut extra-curricular programs and more. Have you?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, that's completely wrong, and we've had this fanciful figure being bandied about by different state and territory ministers over the last year or two. The simple truth is Queensland wasn't part of the national agreement around school funding, and when I became the Minister for Education I in fact brought John-Paul Langbroek and the Queensland Government into the national agreement; and in exchange for becoming part of it, provided them with hundreds of millions of dollars that Labor had cut out of their budget. So spending on schools in Queensland from the Commonwealth Government goes up every year, year on year, for the next four years, which is part of the forward estimates program. Nationally: 8 per cent, 8 per cent, 6 per cent, and 4 per cent. I don't have those figures in front of me for Queensland because I didn't know you were going to ask me, but if I had them I could tell you that they would be going up every single year.

STEVE AUSTIN: So the allocation from the last Federal Budget for Queensland for education, went up over the Budget before, and the Budget before that?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Correct. Absolutely right. In fact nationally we're spending $70 billion on school education, and Queensland is getting its fair share. In fact, it's getting more than it would have if Bill Shorten was the prime minister because Bill Shorten had been the one that cut $1.2 billion out of Western Australia, Queensland, and the Northern Territory, and I put it back in.

STEVE AUSTIN: She points out that the funding, a new formula for funding from 2017‑18 will deliver this less ‑ these billions less over the following decade. Now, I'm assuming she's going to raise that with you this morning ‑ she said it to the media, I'm assuming she's going to say it to you. What will your response then be?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well my response Steve will be that we have spent 40 per cent more on school education over the last 10 years while our results in literacy and numeracy have declined, both in absolute terms and relative to OECD countries. So money is not the actual answer in education. Now we can talk relentlessly about give me more money. The truth is, what will make a difference for students is a stronger curriculum, better teachers, more parental engagement, and more autonomy at the local level. That's what the OECD says. They don't say the Commonwealth is not providing enough money to the states. In fact, nobody suggests that, because we're giving more money to the states and territories than ever, record spending. For example, South Australia's spending is going up 26 per cent, Victoria's 27 per cent. And yet in spite of all this extra spending, our results are declining. Now, I think common sense tells us that therefore the problem is not spending, the problem is the other areas that I've identified.

STEVE AUSTIN: I'm talking with the Federal Education Minister Christopher Pyne, this is 612 ABC Brisbane, Steve Austin's my name. As you go to that meeting you're going to walk through or try and make your way through a phalanx of protesters who are calling on the Federal Government to revisit or look at the Gonski funding model, but your argument is that you've already increased funding, that there is a question mark over the direct connection between funding and education outcomes. You see it as what, [indistinct] areas of teaching training or something else?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well the Teachers Federation keep talking about smaller class sizes. Now we've got some of the smaller class sizes in the OECD, they're down to about 21, 22 students. I don't mind whether you have smaller class sizes, but smaller class sizes haven't actually improved the outcomes for students. Now if my vision is to put students first, and to give students the best outcomes possible, I'm not going to keep doing the thing that is actually not making any difference. Now the Teachers Federation and the Unions are like a broken record; all they want to do is talk about money. I want to talk to the teachers, to the unions, to the Ministers about what are the things that are going to make our students get better results, and common sense tells us if you're spending more money and the results are getting worse, the problem is not res… the problem is not money, the problem is the other fundamental aspects of teaching.

STEVE AUSTIN: You've reached agreement with the states on new teacher standards. What are they, just in point form?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well the Australian Institute of Teacher Standards and Leadership are responsible for the national standards for teachers, that's about the three different bands of teaching, and what you can expect from each one. I think that's a good development, but that was last year, and we're reaching agreement with the states and territories on a number of things, for example teacher standards as you've mentioned, the National Curriculum reforms which will begin next year. We've also had every state and territory as part of the Commonwealth Government's Independent Public Schools programme, which is terrific news as well. So in fact the state and territories agree on many things with the Commonwealth, but they also have to have their moment of beating up the Commonwealth, that's part of the political process, and I fully understand that.

STEVE AUSTIN: Alrighty, now before I let you go, you had Ken Wiltshire review the curriculum, and I interviewed him at the time and had a read through of the review - not every page but a pretty solid read through - and it was pretty good. He came up with some pretty good ideas, and points to make, where is that at? What's happening with that process?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I'm pleased to tell you that in the February meeting of the Education Minister's Council we agreed to the reform of the national curriculum. ACARA the Australian Curriculum and Reporting Authority are currently implementing the changes that are necessary, they'll report to us in August with the final position, and we all expect on the first of January a more ‑ a better revised, more robust, less cluttered curriculum will take the place of what's there now. We're not throwing the baby out with the bath water, we don't want the teachers to start all over again. A lot of them have put tremendous effort into getting across the national curriculum, but we'd like - in primary school for example we're going to turn four subjects into one so that teachers can spend more time on English, science, and mathematics in primary school because one of the criticisms was there's too much breadth and not enough depth. So that'll give the teachers the time so they don't have to move on quickly from one thing to another when they know that the class has not necessarily grasped the concepts.

STEVE AUSTIN: Final question, the review looks like it's also one of the chief frontline battles against radicalisation of young people. Is it?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well it… certainly it is, and one of the things that I'm going to talk to the state ministers about today is a de-radicalisation strategy. I want to find out what we're doing in every state and territory around the de-radicalisation of youth who might be at risk. It's a very serious and important issue, and I would hope the states and territories will come on board. We're not going to make any hard and fast decisions today about that, but I'm certainly hoping we can start the process of gathering the information about what we all do in each of the states and territories.

STEVE AUSTIN: Christopher Pyne I really appreciate your time this morning, thank you very much.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It's always a pleasure thanks Steve.

STEVE AUSTIN: Federal Education Minister Christopher Pyne.

[ends]