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JOURNALIST: For so much of this year two tribes was dominated by talk of the Australian election and today we turn our attention to our friends across the seas. The US presidential election takes place today, in fact as we speak there are Americans lining up for polling booths right across the nation and I think it’s only appropriate we turn our attention to it and ask our two guests on two tribes their thoughts, Chris Pyne and Anthony Albanese good morning.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good morning Will.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Good morning.

JOURNALIST: Chris can I ask you first, setting aside the unpredictability and histrionics of Donald Trump, how can anyone in Australia think that it’s not the worst possible outcome for a Trump victory today given his aversion to free trade and his position when it comes to force projection from the US across the globe? It seems to be about receding back into US borders, how can that combination possibly not be the worst outcome for Australians?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I think Trump’s isolationism would be a very negative outcome for Australia but if he became the President obviously as the US is our only ally along with New Zealand in the ANZUS Treaty we would work with whomever the American people chose given it’s a democracy. But obviously I don’t agree with his views about either free trade or America retreating from Asia and we would have to see of course if he was elected president whether he actually pursued those policies or whether they were only policies designed to win the election.

JOURNALIST: What do you think Albo?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: I think we’re on a bit of a unity ticket here this morning, unusually for those who follow this program regularly. I think that Hillary Clinton is, as has been said, the most prepared person to be president ever to be elected if she’s successful today. She’s been a Senator, she’s been a Secretary of State, the first lady of the United States, she is someone who has a relationship with Australia and importantly with the region as well, she understands international affairs. Donald Trump is almost a bit of a caricature really and you scratch your head every time I see him speak thinking that so many Americans will vote for him today. It does say something about what’s happening globally I think in politics, a lot of people feel disenfranchised and left out of the globalised economy and don’t think that they’ve been winners from those processes and that’s a message I think to people who are in mainstream politics that we need to think about and respond to.

JOURNALIST: Guys here in Australia question time was dominated yesterday by discussion and argument over section 18C of the Racial Discrimination Act, which makes it an offence to make racially based statements in Australia, to have the capacity to offend or insult minority groups. Albo I was wondering if at its next caucus meeting, do you think the Labor Party could come up with a list of cartoons which you would be happy to see published in the nation’s newspapers?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Well we do have free speech and of course people who understand the Racial Discrimination Act and understand 18D means quite frankly David something that’ll be scary for the listeners here, you in the name of artistic freedom can basically get away with whatever you want under 18D…

JOURNALIST: But that’s not right Albo, that’s not right.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: It is right.

JOURNALIST: No it’s not, because…

ANTHONY ALBANESE: It is right David.

JOURNALIST: Just to clarify, can you confirm that Labor’s position right now is to support laws that compel a cartoonist such as Bill Leak to prove that he isn’t a racist.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: That’s nonsense David.

JOURNALIST: That’s exactly what he’s going through at the moment.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: It’s bull, complete nonsense, 18D provides for complete protection and the fact is that there’ll be no consequence for Bill Leak whatsoever, nothing.

JOURNALIST: But he has to go through the star chamber process when he has to establish that he isn’t a racist.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: David the fact is that someone can take you to court, take legal action tomorrow over a whole range of things that they might allege you’ve done or haven’t done or defamed them…

JOURNALIST: So why have the extra layer, if that was the case?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: The fact is this has worked, do you know how many complaints there were to the Human Rights Commission last year, more than 20,000, more than 20,000.

JOURNALIST: So are you saying Albo at the moment that you think that Bill Leak deserves to be pursued legally the way he is being?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: No he’s not being pursued legally, one of the processes here is, and what’s not understood by some of the cheer squad for basically, it’s unclear what actually they want people to have the right to day, is that the Human Rights Commission do not take court action, individuals can take court action under the law as they can on a whole range of issues. So the Human Rights Commission settled more than 20,000 issues last year, you know about 1 or 2 of them and the rest of them happen smoothly. If there’s an issue here it’s that there’s a limited ability of the Human Rights Commission to dismiss groundless complaints quickly.

JOURNALIST: But you don’t think this one’s groundless.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: I think it is absolutely and I think it should be dismissed quickly.

JOURNALIST: You think the Bill Leak complaint should be dismissed?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: It should be dismissed quickly, yes.

JOURNALIST: So just to be clear on David’s point previously Anthony, who is the burden of proof on when it comes to satisfying 18D, that something is being done reasonably and in good faith?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Well the fact – when a complaint’s raised there’s a response, a complaint has been raised so there’ll be a response and it’ll be dealt with, it’ll be dealt with under 18D. Tell me who the journalists are, look David Penberthy has offended most people over the years…

JOURNALIST: But just to who clear, the burden is…

ANTHONY ALBANESE: No, no, you tell me, name who is it who’s been attacked here and vilified. You can say whatever you’d like essentially; we have freedom of speech in this country. What you can’t do, what you can’t do though is to go out there and to deliberately insight or offend for the sake on the basis of race or on the basis of gender. There’s a really simple issue here which is don’t be racist, it’s pretty simple.

JOURNALIST: But who decides that? I mean Bob Carr, former Labor leader, said the other day that the definition is too narrow at the moment, you don’t want to see a newspaper cartoonist having to sort of, you know, it’s almost like trial by order where he’s got to establish that he’s not trying to offend or insult.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Hang on, but what you’re trying to do here is to stop the freedom of speech of someone saying I think that’s racist, people should be able to say that as well.

JOURNALIST: They absolutely should be able to say that, but to being able to take a legal position is what…

ANTHONY ALBANESE: What are the consequences for Bill Leak of this cartoon.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: He’s being dragged through…

ANTHONY ALBANESE: He’s been dragged through, he’s getting more publicity than he’s ever had.

JOURNALIST: What do you reckon, he’s enjoying it?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Can I perhaps introduce a couple of facts to this discussion?

JOURNALIST: So he’s enjoying it is he, yeah right.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Can I introduce a couple of facts to this discusson?

JOURNALIST: Yeah, please Chris.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Section 18D of the Racial Discrimination Act puts the burden of proof on the person about whom the complaint is being made to prove that they did so reasonably and fairly, so in fact Bill Leak has to prove his innocence, that’s a fact in 18D. The other fact is that a member of the Human Rights Commission said recently that they have to conciliate and investigate every single complaint made to them, but in fact in section 46 of the Racial Discrimination Act it says that they have the discretion to ignore vexatious or frivolous complaints. So the Human Right’s Commission is not doing what the act allows them to do and yesterday Gillian Triggs herself said that section 18C had room to be changed, in fact she countenanced the prospect of removing insult and offend and replacing it with vilify, so the only people in Australia at the moment who are pretending that black is white on this issue and that white is black is the Labor Party who are ignoring all the facts associated with this issue.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Is that right Chris, well your government under Malcolm Turnbull said that this didn’t need to be looked at. Your government under Tony Abbott decided not to look at it after they consulted with the community, in particular the Jewish community and other community leaders who are concerned about changes.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: How do you respond to the fact that Gillian Triggs herself said it had room to be changed.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: You’ve been in government for more than four years.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No we haven’t, we been in government for three years actually.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Well you’re in your fourth year, you’re in your second term.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We got elected in September 2013…

ANTHONY ALBANESE: You’re now in your fourth year.

JOURNALIST: We’ve got Bill Leak joining Leon Byner after 9 o’clock so stick around for that interview. He is of course the cartoonist from the Australian to whom I referred with the cartoon that’s been the subject of this race based complaint by an indigenous woman, now before the Human Rights Commission. To Christopher Pyne and Anthony Albanese, thanks very much for joining us for two tribes this morning.