5AA

E&OE TRANSCRIPT 5AA Mornings with Leon Byner Date 02/12/14 SUBJECTS: Higher education reforms Leon Byner: Let’s talk to Federal Education Minister Christopher Pyne. Chris thanks for joining us today. Christopher Pyne: Good morning Leon Leon Byner: I hope you’re not going to buy gender specific toys for your children. Christopher Pyne: I think I may have already made that sin in the past I hope they don’t turn into domestic violence advocates, but so far so good, they seem perfectly normal (laughs). I tend to think the people of Australia know a little bit more about how to raise a family than the state does. I have great faith in the common sense of the Australian public. And I always have had. Leon Byner: Good now look we’re in a very interesting piece of territory at the moment where you want to deregulate university…you want to deregulate the fees and so on. Christopher Pyne: Yes. Leon Byner: Now, allegedly, according to all the newswires today have you struck a deal with the crossbenchers to pass your higher education reforms, and how confident are you of securing their support? Christopher Pyne: Well Leon, I’m certainly getting closer and closer. It’s like wading through molasses because we have eight crossbenchers. The Labor party and the Greens have dealt themselves out of the equation by simply saying no and each crossbencher needs to be spoken to quite independently and they all have their own particular take on the reforms so I’m very patiently, and I hope in good humour, working through all the things that they have issues with, and I think that we are getting there. The thing about these reforms is, when Labor was in power they stripped $6.6 billion out of universities. Now, we need to replace that revenue if our universities are to be internationally competitive. Leon Byner: And who do you want to pay for that? Christopher Pyne: Well the students are currently paying 40 per cent on average of the cost of their education. I want them to pay 50 per cent of the cost of their education. Leon Byner: Ok, now let’s say you want to be a doctor. Or say you want to be a scientist, and we need all those people…it’s the higher skills. I mean your colleague, the trade minister, talks about innovation, about research and development. If we’re serious about this stuff, we need to get as many people as possible in those higher disciplines. If you end up asking a student of a higher discipline to pay more, how fair is that? Christopher Pyne: Well it’s perfectly fair because they will be able to borrow every single dollar from the Australian taxpayer, upfront, and only have to pay it back on the basis of the consumer price index, or the cost of living. It’s the best loan they’ll ever get and fees will of course be determined by universities based on the future earning income potential of students, and students earn 75 per cent more than people without a university degree over a lifetime. So, a university degree is the key to the highest incomes, the best health, the longest life expectancy; the lowest unemployment rates. The fees they will pay back, they don’t start paying until they are earning over $50,000 a year. Medical graduates are some of the highest paid people in our community, so they will pay off their debts very quickly. Leon Byner: OK, let’s talk to Senator Nick Xenophon who is a very key player in this. Nick, do you concur with what Chris is saying, or do you have reservations? Nick Xenophon: Well I do have reservations. I have to say this about Christopher Pyne, I say this as a genuine compliment, in terms of being a masterful salesman, an advocate for the government’s policies, he’s done that, and he’s often incredibly professional to deal with and all credit to him. I guess the concerns I have, is prior to the last election, nothing was said about this and I think the then opposition leader, now Prime Minister Tony Abbott, spoke to universities and gave a speech where he said the coalition policy was one of quote “masterly inaction”. Now Labor did strip a lot of money out of the higher education sector the concern I have is that this is a big change in the sector in terms of deregulation. I appreciate that there are a number of measures that are being considered by crossbenchers and the Minister has shown himself to be adroit and flexible on that but I’ve still got this big stumbling block in terms of it effectively being a broken promise, and effectively a big shake up of the sector. And again, I’m not having a go at the minster because in terms of articulating a difficult position he’s done it very well, but we will see a significant change in the way our tertiary sector works and ultimately students will end up paying more. Leon Byner: Chris what do you say to that? Do you think the crossbenchers have an obligation to keep the government to its promises? Christopher Pyne: I think they have an obligation to ensure there is good government and that they are a house of review, and that is why I’m sitting down and working through amendments that will make the package of reforms even fairer and I thought it already was…so for example we’ve dropped the ten year government bond rate for the interest repayments and reduced it to the CPI, and for mums and dads that are leaving the workforce to have a child we are actually freezing the CPI rate, so in fact there will be no increase in their HECS debt whatsoever, the higher education contribution scheme will be even more generous that it already is. I understand Nick’s hesitation. When I got into power as the education minister, I was presented with the fact that our universities were stagnating in their international competitiveness, that there wasn’t enough revenue in the system, and I had to choose between asking students to pay 50 / 50 with the taxpayer or asking to taxpayer to delve into their own pockets again, and Leon I think the taxpayers have already been squeezed enough. Leon Byner: Alright. Now there’s one other point and I think it’s worth mentioning here, that a lot of international students whose parents pay big money, now I’ll give you an example…Chinese each generally have one child, that was a policy for a long time. That child is their prize. They want to give that boy or girl the best possible education. They are prepared to pay a poultice, they do, but I get from universities, all of them, that there is enormous pressure to pass these students even if their work is inferior, because of the money. What do you say to that? Christopher Pyne: Well I asked David Kemp and Andrew Norton to do a report on the university system at the end of 2013 because I had heard some of that anecdotal evidence and I wanted to make sure if it was true or not. They found the quality of our higher education system had not slipped at all because of the demand driven system introduced by Labor or the rapid expansion of international students. But, when I saw in the Sydney Morning Herald a couple of weeks ago allegations of cheating by international students…dare I say it, but some Australian students might be guilty of cheating as well…but when I saw international students accused of cheating I asked the regulator, the tertiary education regulator to investigate those allegations. But I wouldn’t blame just international students. Cheating by students, from primary school to university is not something that is new to the education sector. But of course, we should stamp it out wherever we can, but I don’t think you will be able to change human nature in some cases. Leon Byner: Nick Xenophon? Nick Xenophon: Well, look, I mean academics tell me that the demand driven system, something introduced by Labor, not by the Coalition, has with it its own issues and whether we need to look at this is a much bigger debate because it’s beyond the Bill that’s before the parliament. Whether we need to look at the demand driven system in terms of being capped in a sense, that the place is just left open, and this is a change from Labor days, whether that in itself is unsustainable. Academics tell me that there IS pressure on them to pass students, and it’s not just overseas students… Leon Byner: Yeah sure… Nick Xenophon: (indecipherable), not blaming the government, but it is a real issue. Leon Byner: Chris Pyne, are you looking for a vote before parliament stops at the end of the week, on this? Christopher Pyne: We most definitely are Leon. I believe we’ve been debating this since the Budget in May. I think students deserve to know certainty about what their fees will be. I also think that once the universities know what the final package looks like they will release their fee structures and I think the public will say gosh, that wasn’t nearly as bad as Labor pretended it was going to be. And Labor’s scare campaign will be exposed for the lies it’s been. Leon Byner: Alright, Nick Xenophon and Chris Pyne, thank you. There you’ve got an interesting insight into a policy that again, there was an undertaking made before the election which appears to have changed. ENDS