2GB Ben Fordham

E&OE TRANSCRIPT
Interview – 2GB Ben Fordham with Anthony Albanese
Wednesday 7 October 2015

SUBJECTS: Penalty rates; Health Services Union

BEN FORDHAM: Christopher Pyne and Anthony Albanese, good afternoon to you both.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Good afternoon Ben, good afternoon Anthony.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: How are you going? I think 51 years might be a bit long, but maybe Christopher might make it, he went in very young.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I did but I don’t think you want to have us there until our last breathe, I think my children might have some views about that.

BEN FORDHAM: I am just trying to think about that, Christopher, you are coming up to twenty years.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I am over twenty.

BEN FORDHAM: Weren’t you 1996?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, 1993 I was elected.

BEN FORDHAM: You were 1993?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: I was 1996.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I was twenty-five years old, twenty-two years I am coming up to.

BEN FORDHAM: We could have a record breaking here, Albo.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: I reckon that is what he going for. The only explanation for why he ran for federal parliament at age twenty-five.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: What about a life of service, that would be a better reason?

BEN FORDHAM: A little bit of breaking news this afternoon gentlemen – do you know that Kathy Jackson – the former union boss is having her home raided as we speak?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I didn’t know that, no.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: I did and that is probably a good thing although Christopher was pretty supportive of Kathy Jackson a while back.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well I was very supportive of the role she played as a whistle-blower in the union movement for the Health Services Union because I thought that is important whereas Labor and the union's response to turn on her…

ANTHONY ALBANESE: You said she was a hero, and quite clearly she’s not, she has been found by a Court already of ripping off over a million dollars of members’ money.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yeah but I didn’t know that at the time.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: No I accept that totally but it just goes to show you got to be careful of who you say is a hero.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It’s true. I didn’t know that at the time. If I had known that at the time, I wouldn’t have said it.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: My view is that where there are bad eggs in the union movement they need to face the full force of the law because you know working people pay their union dues and expect union officials to represent them and that they are in it for the interests of the members – it is quite clear that in the HSU’s case for not just Kathy Jackson of course but for Michael Williamson and Craig Thomson were in it for themselves.

BEN FORDHAM: Michael Williamson…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE:...Registered Organisations Commission Bill and the Australian Building and Construction Commission…

BEN FORDHAM: Michael Williamson of course was a former federal boss of the Labor Party, Albo?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: He was the national president of the Labor Party which means you get to chair the meetings and I doubt whether you would have heard of him at that time.

BEN FORDHAM: No, not until he was in strife. While we are talking about workers, I must just segue into penalty rates because it is an important battlefront and the Prime Minister and the Opposition Leader are split on what to do on penalty rates and I think this is one of the first major differences to emerge between Malcolm Turnbull and Bill Shorten. Malcolm Turnbull is hinting to changes to penalty rates, he has done more than that – he has a number of MPs and Ministers who came out supporting that yesterday. Bill Shorten says no, we need to protect these weekend rates and after hours rates as much as we can so it’s going to be an interesting one to watch. I might go to you first, Christopher, if I can – the need to do something about penalty rates?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well, there is certainly a need to modernise the economy. Labor’s policy is hiding under doona policy in pretending that there is nothing going on in the rest of the world. Labor is against the China-Australia Free Trade Agreement, we don’t know yet whether they’re against the Trans Pacific Partnership, they seem to sort of throw stones at every idea that comes along. A lot of people are saying in the retail sector, and across the economy that penalty rates are hurting jobs, are hurting workers, the only conversation that we are having about this at the moment is if there was to be a change to penalty rates, nobody could be no worse off, no worker could be worse off, but at least we are having the conversation – Labor has no plan other than to say the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd Government made no mistakes and they want to go back to that era.

BEN FORDHAM: Let me bring in Albo on this for a moment – Albo would it be … I mean I know that a lot of people survive off penalty rates and they are very important to people but would it be such a big difference if we say look let’s treat Sundays like Saturday because the seven-day economy is a fact of life, these days people work whenever the jobs are there – they don’t care if they are having a weekend during the week or the weekends. We have all had to do shiftwork – would it be a big deal if you said to people look we are going to pay you on Sunday what we normally pay you on Saturday?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: The truth is the weekends are different, Ben, which is why your programme runs from Monday-Friday, which is why the AFL Grand Final is on a Saturday and the Rugby League Final is on a Sunday.

BEN FORDHAM: Yeah but it is also... I am required, if my boss has said to me all of a sudden, mate you are working this weekend – guess what, you are working.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Yeah but the programming of 2GB like other stations, the way we live our lives is different on weekends. Now I am all for reform that creates jobs and you can do that. There are examples through enterprise bargaining, sitting down and working out arrangements which make sure that people are not worse off, that is available right now through enterprise bargaining. But if you just take penalty rates away – that is what people rely upon for a living wage in order to pay the mortgage and put food on the table…

BEN FORDHAM: But it is no good though if it gets to a point, Anthony, where people aren’t opening on a Sunday because they can’t afford to pay the penalty rates and then you got a reduction in the amount of work that is being offered out there?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Sure, and that is why you can deal with those things through enterprise bargaining. There is an agreement in South Australia in Christopher’s own state earlier this year along those lines…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It was a fiasco.

BEN FORDHAM: Christopher, let me stretch it to you if I can for a moment – are you guys going to be brave enough to do anything on this, probably not?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Well the agreement in South Australia gave a half-day holiday on New Year’s Eve, half the shops and restaurant and cafes in South Australia were shut on New Year’s Eve because of the agreement that had been struck between the South Australian Government, the SDA, the Shoppie’s…

BEN FORDHAM: But have you guys really got the tick, has Malcolm Turnbull got the tick for a long campaign against Anthony Albanese and Bill Shorten and the cashed up union movement against penalty rates? I think not.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I think the public is thoroughly sick of the Labor Party saying no to everything. I think they are happy to have the conversation. We haven’t made any hard and fast decisions about it but at least we are talking about it. Now we have had the…

ANTHONY ALBANESE: You have been talking about it for two years.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: We had the National Summit last Thursday, the ACTU and the rest of us down in Canberra. I was there as one of the economic ministers and we decided not to rule anything in or rule anything out. So we could have a proper, mature debate. Now the first thing that Labor does of course is come out and say no. Now I think the public is thoroughly sick of Labor’s position on these issues and that’s why….

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Think of your slogans and that is why you got rid of the Prime Minister two weeks ago, and you have fallen back straight away into using slogans.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: What slogan?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: You come up with all the slogans about Labor…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Come on, what slogans?

ANTHONY ALBANESE: We are not saying that.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: You are. You are against the China-Australia Free Trade Agreement.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Oh rubbish, we are not.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE:…about penalty rates.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: It is just childish, juvenile politics.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: You can’t answer Ben’s question.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Move on. The fact is you have through enterprise bargaining the ability to organise…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: And I just told you what happened in South Australia. On New Year’s Eve, the restaurants and cafes were shut.

BEN FORDHAM: Righto.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Look if you go to Noosa on Christmas Day, there was a story last year in The Australian about how the restaurants in fact shut on Christmas Day in Noosa because they couldn’t open them because they couldn’t make a profit. Now business won’t open if they can’t make a profit.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Come to my electorate on a Saturday or a Sunday and you will see…

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: You are in the inner-city café latte area…

ANTHONY ALBANESE:…all open, people working.

BEN FORDHAM: All right, gentlemen.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Yesterday, twelve shops, on Sunday, twelve shops were shut and signs were in their windows to say they were closed because of penalty rates.

BEN FORDHAM: Alright can I jump in here for a moment because we are beaten on time. Christopher, the change in leadership at the top of liberal party was just brought up by Anthony Albanese of course just like you guys always brought it up when the Rudd-Gillard-Rudd stuff was going on. Have you had time to touch base with Tony Abbott or Joe Hockey yet?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Anthony is just jealous because he hasn’t been able to change the leadership of the Labor Party – he is desperate to change the leadership of the Labor Party.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Come on Christopher, answer the question mate.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: It’s true.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: You are the one who has just been through a bloodbath. Have you spoken to Tony?

BEN FORDHAM: Christopher?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I have been in communication with Tony, but I think when these things happen..

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Did you send him a card?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: I think when these things happen it is often best to let people take their time.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Smoke signal?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE:…take their time to you know recover from…

BEN FORDHAM: How have you made contact?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Through text messages. But you know my communications with Tony Abbott is not really the business of your listeners or yourself, quite frankly.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Did you say sorry? What did it say? Sorry, I didn’t mean it?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: He’s a good friend of mine.

BEN FORDHAM: All I want to know is this - I am not going to ask what was written, but did he write back?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Of course he did.

BEN FORDHAM: What about Mr Hockey?

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: No, I haven’t had a chance to talk to Joe yet. Oh, of course I have spoken to Joe since the leadership change, but not in the last week or so because he has been away.

BEN FORDHAM: Gentlemen, I will talk to you both next week.

ANTHONY ALBANESE: Ciao.

CHRISTOPHER PYNE: Thank you.

[ends]