2GB Alan Jones

SUBJECTS: News in Parliament; Education reform; Labor leadership

E&OE………… 

Alan Jones: Christopher Pyne, good morning. 

Christopher Pyne: Good morning Alan. 

Jones: Thank you for your time.  You’re the manager of Opposition Business.  Just explain to my listeners who maps out this strategy that’s applied in question time. 

Pyne: That’s primarily my responsibility to work on tactics and strategy in the chamber.  And obviously the leadership group; Tony Abbott, Julie Bishop, Joe Hockey, myself, and then we have a questions committee which talks about how to hold the Government to account in question time and on matters of public importance.  So it’s a team approach, but if it all goes wrong, it’s my fault. 

Jones: So what is the strategy in 2012? 

Pyne: Well, obviously we want to continue what we did last year, which is to hold the Government to account for its promises.  That’s proving difficult because the Prime Minister is adept at breaking them.  We also want to get to the bottom of why the Fair Work Inquiry into Craig Thomson is taking such an inordinate amount of time, it’s taking longer than the Korean War, longer than it took to build Sydney’s Olympic Stadium.  We also want to find out what the Prime Minister knew and what her office was up to in the Australia Day protest only about 10 days ago.  And of course there’s the whole issue of the Prime Minister’s credibility given her extraordinary broken promise to Andrew Wilkie, which was the basis of the forming of the Government.  People need to understand that Julia Gillard signed a contract with Andrew Wilkie to get his support to be Prime Minister, which she has torn up at the beginning of this year and of course we also want to ensure if we can possibly do it stop the carbon tax from coming in before an election so that once we’ve had an election so that we can make sure it never happens. 

Jones: It does defy belief.  I heard your comments yesterday.  It does defy belief this Thomson affair does it now that this inquiry has taken longer than the Watergate trials, longer than the Korean War, longer than the construction of the Olympic Stadium, longer than the life of the Rudd Government.  I said earlier today, I repeated last week Tony Abbott’s points; longer than the Wood Royal Commission into police in New South Wales, longer than the Fitzgerald Royal Commission, longer than the Cole Royal Commission into the building.  This to investigate a bloke spending $100,000 of union money on himself, what is going on there? 

Pyne:  Well clearly Alan there’s an institutional go-slow and there’s evidence….

Jones:  Something’s at risk for the Government.

Pyne:  Yes well of course the Government is at risk because Craig Thompson is a vote in their Parliament and they rely on his support to remain in office.  Without Craig Thompson the Government will fall.  So Fair Work Australia and the Government have been working together, we know that, there’s evidence of emails of collusion between Fair Work Australia and the Government over the massaging of the media lines.  We want the Prime Minister to commit to revealing all the communications between Fair Work Australia and the Government, that’s the least she should do, but obviously Fair Work Australia must bring this investigation to a close because it just hangs a cloud of illegitimacy over a government that relies on the tainted vote of Craig Thomson.

Jones:  Everywhere you turn, every poll you see suggests that by a mile Kevin Rudd is the preferred Labor Leader.  Should Kevin Rudd become the leader?  Would that require new strategies?  Would that inject new fears into the Opposition?  New risks?  Or would you be just as comfortable dealing with him as Julia Gillard in terms of the past record of both leaders?

Pyne:  Alan, the problem with this Government is not just the personnel, not just the fact that there is a massive leadership unrest  and tension between Julia Gillard and Kevin Rudd.  Sure that makes the government look chaotic and shambolic but the real problem with this government is its policies.  Its border protection policies and it was Kevin Rudd who dismantled the Howard Government’s border protection policies not Julia Gillard although she’s wearing it now.  Kevin Rudd was the person who began the whole process towards a carbon tax.  Julia Gillard has implemented it but Kevin Rudd was part of that at the very beginning, he wanted to put an emissions trading scheme into place before Copenhagen.

Jones:  The greatest moral challenge of our time he called it.

Pyne:  That’s right.  So, you know, Kevin Rudd is as much attached to the carbon tax and the failed border protection policy and the massive spending that is causing so much trouble in our economy and to our budget bottom line as Julia Gillard is.  So if Kevin Rudd was to become the Prime Minister, it wouldn’t take the Opposition very long to remind people who was the person who started the biggest deficits in Australia’s political history, who started to dismantle the border protection policies and who started the pathway towards a carbon tax.

Jones:  You made a speech yesterday on education to the Australian Mathematical Sciences Institute Forum.  You are the Shadow Minister and will most probably be the next Minister for Education.  Now admittedly it was a specific subject namely maths for the future and I know you’ve done a heap of work on all of this.  Can I just ask you this for a start: you talk about a strong mathematics and science education system needed and you outline ten principles that would underpin your approach to student funding but how are we going to have better science and maths graduates if we don’t have adequate maths and science teachers?

 Pyne:  Well you’re right about that and it’s very much a chicken and egg argument.  We won’t have better maths and science teachers unless children in school are learning maths and science.  And half the reason we don’t have enough maths and science teachers is because students throughout their schooling aren’t necessarily attracted to maths and science.  When they leave school they’re not going to suddenly become maths and science teachers if they didn’t do it at school.

Jones:  But then why wouldn’t you see – what just concerned me – I know it was a specific subject you were addressing and you’ve addressed these issues before but people listening to you now as the likely next Minister, federal Minister for Education, saying the thing that worries me is content.  I’m worried about what my kids are being taught.  And I note that the Nobel Prize winner, Professor Schmidt, has said yesterday that many Australian children, too many Australian children are being taught quote ‘by teachers without the competency required to teach the subjects their teaching.’  That’s not the teacher’s fault he said, it’s the system’s fault.

Pyne:  That’s right.

Jones:  Now if we want more science teachers then shouldn’t we build a bias into the HECS system whereby they actually are able to go to university, well for nothing, so long as we indenture them into the teaching profession for a period of time after that.

Pyne:  Well Alan, that is one option and it’s certainly worth considering.  What I said in my speech yesterday is that in the last thirty years the schooling system has been skewed towards teaching children skills and what we need to be teaching children is knowledge.  Because once things change, as professions change and skill-sets change, if all you’ve been taught is how to text or how to use a computer or whatever else then you won’t be able to change with the times.  And the whole basis of our education system decades ago was a knowledge based system built around science, mathematics, English, classics, history and so on.  And we were taught about things not just how things happen.  And I think the tremendous change we need to bring about in education which I will do if I am Minister is send the education system back to a knowledge based system rather than a skills based system so that when people learn about algebra and trigonometry and mathematics and calculus they can then understand…

Jones: The thing that worries me is content, I’m worried about what my kids are being taught, and I note that the Noble Prize winner professor Schmidt has said yesterday that many of Australian children, too many of Australian children are being taught by teachers without the competency required to teach the subjects that they are teaching, that’s not the teachers fault he said it’s the systems fault.

Pyne: He’s right.

Jones: Yeah, now if we want more science teachers, shouldn’t we build a bias into the HECS system whereby they actually are able to go to university well for

nothing so long as we indenture them into the teaching profession for a period of time after that.

Pyne: Well Allan that is one option and it’s certainly worth considering. What I said in my speech yesterday was that the last 30 years the schooling system has been skewed toward teaching children skills, and what we need to be teaching children is knowledge, because once things change as professions change and skill sets change, if all you have been taught is how to text or how to use a computer or whatever else, then you wont be able to change with the times and the whole basis of our education system decades ago was a knowledge based system built around science, mathematics, english, classics, history and so on, and we were taught about things, not just how things happen and I think one of the tremendous changes we need to bring about in education which I will do if I’m Minister is send the education system back to a knowledge based system, rather than a skills based system so that when people learn about algebra, trigonometry and mathematics and calculus they can then understand how that works.

Jones: Does that include grammar, punctuation, syntax and spelling?

Pyne: Absolutely, that would be the same in English, we wouldn’t be using the whole language learning system that we use now, and we would use the phonetic system which is the system where you learn why it sounds a particular way, so when people learn about algebra, trigonometry and mathematics and calculus they can then understand how that works.

Jones: We just had the 200^th anniversary of Dickens birth, and a whole heap of kids out there had never heard of him.

Pyne: This is the tragedy. It is a tragedy when you elevate text messaging and movies to the same level as Shakespeare.

Jones: See we just had a report from the Australian Curriculum and assessment reporting authority on the revised history curriculum, now the greens and the national sorry day committee, excuse me I nearly burped saying that, objected to the fact that the earlier draft curriculum didn’t introduce the study of the stolen generations until year 10, so now we’ll have national sorry day on the 26^th may commemorating the forced removal of aboriginal children, and that will be taught to all Australian children from year three. Now, I don’t think it matters what event is the subject of historical analysis, so long the analysis is accurate and all sides are presented and as you know there were many reasons why children were removed many of them for example were removed because they could have been killed from their tribes because they were not full blooded aborigines. See it’s this kind of invasion of this stuff into the curriculum that is worrying the mums and dads that are listening to you now.

Pyne: Well Allan, I have four children, two in grade six, one in grade four, and one who’s not yet at school, the one in grade four, honesty, I don’t believe that when he was in grade three he would have had the sophistication, as much as I love him, I just don’t think he would have had the sophistication in grade three to understand all the issues associated with the matters you’re talking about.

Jones: But they are taught today that carbon tax is a pollutant in primary school, they know all about global warming, but they can’t spell.  I mean there are kids that have come out of school thinking the word ‘u – n –d –a – u – b – t –e –d –l – y’  and they say ‘I would of gone to the cricket if it hadn’t been raining’, I mean their language is poor, but they know all about global warming and carbon dioxide and the stolen generation.

Pyne: Well, that’s why I said yesterday in my speech that we need to return to a more traditional method of teaching that we need to have a knowledge based education system, we need to have a proper understanding of the basics in education rather than a simply elevated system.

Jones: How do you do this? How do you do this? This is now engrained, it’s like turning around the Queen Mary.

Pyne: I think there are a lot of Principals and senior people in the education system, who thinks exactly the same way, but they don’t have any opportunity to do what they want to do because everything is controlled in the state education system through central office. What I said in my speech yesterday, is that we will link the Federal government $3.8 billion of funding for public schools that goes to the states to be spent in those schools to genuine Principal autonomy which  will give Principals the freedom that they want and desire to do what they need to do in their schools.

Jones: That’s a very good point because to use the very base measuring stick of wealth I mean if a community has an outstanding school doing the sorts of things that you’re talking about where content is pre-eminent where literature, languages science and maths are well taught people would want to live in that community, housing values go up and so on. So obviously there’s autonomy about the principal as to what will happen in my school.

Pyne: Well that’s what people want, that’s want parents want, its what principals want and all the overseas studies and even Australian studies that have been done here by a man called Brian Caldwell indicate that principal autonomy is one of the driving factors in the outcomes for students in their achievements, in their aptitude and in their future employment and whether they will go to university and get further education. So, we will be unabashed in our drive for autonomy in the school system.

Jones: But Professor Schmidt yesterday talking about science and maths you’re going to have to do something about that to get people into the science and maths faculties at universities and you might have to build a bias into the funding so that these people are encouraged by scholarship to take up those disciplines.

Pyne:  And that’s why teach  for Australia  a program that been coming out of Melbourne and has been running said yesterday in the United Kingdom for some time is all about getting people who are Economics graduates, Science graduates, Maths graduates into teaching rather than going into….

Jones: But on salaries that can compete, are we paying them enough?

Pyne: Well, we’ll be able to do a lot of those things if we give the flexibility to the system that isn’t there now.

Jones: See the irony of this is Julia Gillard spent $16 billion of taxpayers money on school halls and building the rest of it rather than  .. I mean if you’re a good teacher you can teach on a hot tin roof but the content is the issue I mean good teachers is the issue isn’t it?

Pyne: Well Alan, imagine this, imagine a situation where a principal could save money in their own school through their own measure and then keep those savings and spend them on priorities in the school. Rather than every decision being made by NSW Education Central office down to how many pencils a principal can have in their school.

Jones: How did we get to this, how did we get to this?

Pyne: Ideology

Jones: Ideology, you’re right you’re right it’s frightening and there’s parents out there generally concerned about what’s happening in the schools. Thankfully you’ve got four kids so you’re going through all this yourself. I thank you for you’re time and you’ve got a hell of a lot of work to do but you’re doing a great job on that front. We’ll talk again.

Pyne: Thanks Allan

ENDS